I am new to the forum all though I have been a regular reader of it for a cpl yrs now and I would like to add a little input to this discussion. I see both sides but what I think the ney sayers are missing is the big picture. Riggs is correct in that SHOULD an encounter occur, we MUST have a gunfighter mindset in order to give the best chance for survival. It is NOT a mindset that we would conduct our day to day duty with, it is not possible to carry that level for more than 15 min or so. The body just cant hold that level of hyper awareness before it starts to lose its edge. Just to add a little insight I spent 4 yrs USMC, 21 yrs Ohio DRC, 7 yrs as a firearms instructor for the dept and collected a few medals and trophys from various combat shooting matches. Please consider what Riggs is saying to be a situational use of this mindset, much like we use comedian, counselor etc as has been stated previously.

“Us…. and them…. And after all, we’re only ordinary men.”

I’ll have that LP in my head for the rest of the day.

“Money, it’s a gas” Rock on to the" Dark side of the moon"….Hmmm, yes Mudflap, go to the dark side…

I’m with Shakey on this one, Crank up the PINK FLOYD!!!

Named Mudflap is he.

You MUDFLAP are a Jedi Master, That is sooo coooool. whoo hoo.

Man, I crack myself up.

I understand whay you’re saying but respectfully disagree. It may be because of our perceptions of what a gunfighter is…. my perception is someone who makes their living fighting with guns. My duty weapons are occasionally a part of my defense arsenal but they’re not my primary source of income. Perhaps I’m more of a mind controller, altering perceptions and convincing people to do things they’d prefer not to do…….

Personally, I think the term “gunfighter” connotes a negative and or brash opinion in most people. Even if you try to pretty it up by adding the word “profesional”. I mean, I may have been trained in hand-to-hand combat, so ipso-facto that puts me in the same catagory as a profesional wrestler! Hmmm, not sure if that is what I want to be refered to…

Yes

You don’t find very often, that anybody who’s stone on weed will jump up and try to kick someones ass, now you let them get drunk, they want to kick everyones fair game.

Hey Shakey, you may be on to something there! Sounds like the old Springfield Fed unit in Missouri.

You know, if we let them smoke all the dope they want, we would probably eleminate almost all of the assaults. Pipe in some good tunes, burn a little insence, throw in some snacks and BAM, welcome to cell block……..?…..Where was I,… Oh. Pipe in some good tunes, burn a ………?…. Oh crap……nite..

Sgt. Major you still were qualified in weapons in the service with qualification levels marksman, sharpshooter and expert. This is an accomplishment to be proud of and by the way thank you for your service to our country. Besides Corrections I also work part time in a local Hospital/trauma Center where our Security Officers (unarmed) pay out of there pockets for their own body armor. We have Correctional Officers who pay for their own point puncture vests also. I fail to see how these actions by the officers somehow equate to “Tackleberry”?

Sergeant Major,

Well said! I never get tired of the amusement of those who want to make themselves into big shots and fail to look after their Brothers/Sisters and this noble profession. I am constantly amazed at the ego that a great many of these folks have. These people are trying to impress those around them, like they are some form of Robocop. Tackleberry is more like it. I once met a Correctional Officer that purchased (With his own money) a level 6 tactical vest and all of the accoutrements. Riggsville’s comments remind me of this now unemployed Robocop.

Regardless, I am still proud to call Corrections a passion and fellow employee’s Brothers and Sisters.

So let’s see… My department requires those that carry weapons to re-qualify every six months. That being said, the “Guns” are used in transport, hospital duty, and a few other areas as well. So, being “Gun Qualified” makes me a “Professional Gunfighter”. After 24 yrs in the Army and Corrections being my second career choice, I suppose that would make me ? For me it is just like in the Army. I hope and pray that I’ll never have to use it, but if I do, I do. -SGM

I have worked in facilities where we were armed (towers and perimeter patrol) and a jail where we were deputies (sworn) and presently in a jail where we are not armed. I prefer armed. We recently had an escape from a transport where the inmate had a toy gun he recieved at the Doctors office hidden away for him. Needless to say it was terrifying for the 2 officers.Putting a label on someone armed as a gubfighter is not completely incorrect. But personal attacks or “knee jerk” reactions aren’t productive in a discussion here. Again I refer back to Col. Grossman’s article. You can choose to be a sheep even in our profession, or you choose to be a sheepdog. Having said that there is nothing wrong with being a warrior in our buisness. As a defensive tactics instructor (PPCT Warrior Science) it is imperitive for the safety of ourselves, our coworkers, the public and inmates that we must be prepared to do violence. Calling ourselves gunfighters, warriors or some other descriptive word is ok. Our brothers in the Police, Sheriff etc… do it all the time and we think nothing of it. I too have been working hard the last 28 years trying to improve the opinion of the public of our profession. when I started at our state pennitentiary we were considered two steps below a crooked cop. We’ve com a long way since then. But that battle still goes on even within our own criminal justice community. I think it’s ok to say amongst ourselves that we are this or that, but to criticize and fight amognst ourselves over what we call each other is not productive or condusive to a good discussion. Sometime we have a tendancy to be too politically correct when we are in a command position (been there, done that0 and forget the thoughts we have when we are line staff. As long as we remain professional in our actions that will be what we are known for. As for the label Gunfighter, that doesn’t mean anything negative, John Wayne was a gunfighter in The Shootist helping good people but a “gunslinger” had an evil tone to it. I prefer Sheepdog.

Shakey,

I agree with some of your points. The perceptions that most people outside of our profession have of a Correctional Professionalism is seriously tarnished by the way we are portrayed. In part by statements made by the people on this blog. I understand that a lot of it is education, and as you said Shakey, some of the employees can’t even spell gun, let alone be responsible for making a professional decision about “Shoot-Don’t Shoot”. I have been trying for 29 years now to change the way we are viewed and the level of training and education required for certain positions. I think we have come a long way since 1980 and we still, unfortunately have a great distance to go. I am nonetheless, unwaivering in my committment to and pride of, the Correctional Professionals, I call Brothers and Sisters.

All it is ,is a matter of semantics, to place some sort of meaning on a requirment that you must obtain to get paid, not as you said ealier " you are paid to maintain a level of skill" I mean we all like to take a job dicription and turn it around to sound more exotic (garbage collector vs sanitation specialist). I try not to place those lables on parts of our job for no better reason, than someone from outside our line of work hears thing like this and it raises eyebrows. I’m not saying that putting a different word is all bad but here where I work we have people who should not be able to spell gun let alone carry one….

And brother, I am safe because there’s only one officer I trust and thats my wife…..

Good one! You almost got me. I thought this was for real until you started trying to correct my spelling…And then I saw yours. I will not play “show me yours but you can’t see mine”.

You want to know about me? Look at my profile…It is not blank like yours. Until you show that you want a legitimate discussion…I’m done. I can argue at work if I like it that much.

*Edit*_ After reading all the posts again, I can see from Shakey’s post and my answer, that there may have been a disconnect in communication. I stated at a point, emphsis on professional. What I was and am trying to convey is that regardless of being a Correctional Officer, IF you are required to carry a firearm, you need to have the PROFESSIONAL MINDSET. Take requals seriously. Go beyond mimimum standards. The word “GUNFIGHTER” is more of a situational term. If the SITUATION calls, we have to step up and be what the situation dictates. Situations call for us to be many things…Counselor, Disciplinarian, Comic, and yes unfortunately at times a fighter. However, our goal is not with the INTENT TO INJURE it is to PREVENT INJURY. That is why in an altercation, the video the jury sees is 4 Officers on 1 Inmate and we have to explain that we do that to try to restrain, NOT TO INJURE the inmate. If it was 1 on 1, that would be a fight.

Mr. Riggsville,

Re-read your last response and then tell me that your not my best example for this debate. Your spelling is horrible and you try to use dramtaics to support your position. I am uninterested in visiting your fictious graves. What do you mean “Statically, Corrections Officers do not Enguage in gunfights”? You have puzzeled me and I am certain everyone who has attempted to read your post. I could go back through your previous posts and determine the answer to this question, however, I am going to ask you. What state DOC do you work for? Looking forward to your reply.

Your knee jerk reaction without getting all the facts causes me concern and I have to be careful not to reply in like kind.

At this point I will not defend what I have already taken care to qualify. If you would like to back up and read the post again and then ask me to clairify, I will be happy to. If you would like my credentials, I will be happy to give them. What I will do is say that you are not going to get your wish (that I am still on probation or that my career will be short).

Your opinion is your opinion…right or wrong. I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to be wrong…On at least six points that I count. Your assurance of never exchanging in a gunfight for one. There is a close personal friend/co-worker that would beg to differ, If she could. I can show you where her grave is and you can try to tell her.
EDIT I did what I did not want to do…give a knee jerk response. After contemplating a few minutes, YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT. Statically, Corrections Officers DO NOT engauge in gunfights. That would take two to “fight”. Corrections Officers are shot and killed without ever getting a shot off IF THEY even have a firearm. end of edit

If you wish, we can back up. You talk (type) nice, I will talk (type) nice and I will be happy to have a fruitful discussion and exchange of ideas.

Be Safe.

Oh My God! riggsville, I can only hope that you are a new correctional employee and you are still on probation and your management team has identified you as someone who should seek the services of the EAP. The statements that you made have sent shivers up my spine. I assure you, that you will never in your (Soon to be short) career engage anyone in a gunfight. I am proud of the correctional professionals that I have had the distinct honor of working with and call them brothers/sisters. You, unfortunatley are not part of that society. I hope for your own good that you either a) Reconsider your profession or b) Seek professional help that will assist you in growing in a professional and mautre way. Either way, your comments do not represent the thoughts or ideas of the modern professional correctional employee.

I may have opened a can of worms here, but my point is that IF:
You work in a position that requires you to be armed and or you are issued a firearm and
You are required to re-qulify on a timely basis
You are a professional gunfighter (emphisis on professional).
It is the mindset to consider.
FBI statistics show that the adverage gunfight lasts about 2 seconds. We owe it to our loved ones (not to mention our department and ourselves) to maintain a level of skill if we are to survive in a hostile environment.
When you look at to total time fighting vs training the Military has us beat. Not compairing us to military, compairing ratios. We fight (not just guns here) a heck of a lot more than we train.
The word “gunfighter” is not a good or bad term…is just is what it is. If you carry, you need to have the gunfighter mindset. You are paid. You are a professional.

Be Safe.

So, if I have to qualify for the use of firearms, that makes me a gunfighter?. So in that sense I am also a Akido Assasin, because of the style of unarmed self defence we are trained in. Sorry but No, I don’t believe that theory at all. I am a Correctional Officer thats trained to defend myself and others as needed, thats all. No fancy nick names to glorify myself to what I am not. If I’m not mistaken wasn’t the bad guy’s “gunfighters” with the sheriff or lawmen trying to stop them? ( oh. except for the lone hero in the western books)
And no we are not authorized to carry off duty and I have no CCW permit. But I do have a truck and that makes me a fast moving target with better stopping power than any gun….:)

The use of Military escorts was brought in during the 70’s with the Terrorist threat from subversive inmates. And since then is in regular use with not only subversives but high profile criminal inmates. We have only one Prison with a permanent military presence. That is Portlaoise Prison. It would have the same status as a Super Max Federal institution. It is used to keep subversives and high ranking criminal leaders. The equivalent of your mafia dons.