Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Jon, I used that sentance about people stopping their use to stop being labeled as criminals to go along with the other example about stopping speeding to stop getting tickets. Both activities are illegal, and the rational response should be to discontinue the current illegal act to end the labeling, correct? Prohibition has failed simply because PEOPLE have refused to follow the LAW. Just like you expound that those who traffic in black market drugs should be penalized for failure to abide by the law, why are you giving these people(drug users) an exception? They are willfully refusing to obey the current law simply based on personal desires, and this is no excuse to say that a law is invalid considering the FACT that the majority DO consider the law valid and needed. See California and the vote to legalize just a small amount of ONLY Marijuana.

Cancer (a disease) the takes many forms, some attributed to addictive behaviors such as smoking, can be detected well before the person exhibits the first signs of or symptoms of having the disease. Did the addictive behavior of smoking cause the cancer(disease) or did the disease(cancer) cause the addictive behavior of smoking?
Did I have the disease of alcoholism before I had my first beer? Was it a progressive cumpulsive disorder that lead me to the state of being an alcoholic? I had no physical or mental distress (DTs) from my abrupt stopping.
An interesting idea to ponder is why in the US we call it a disease, and this was told to me by a person involved in the study of addiction. It has been labeled a disease not because it is, but because it is easier to get the insurance companies to pay for its treatment if it is considered more a physical ailment than a mental problem.

Immigration is failing also Jon, and people are getting killed over that as well. Do you propose we end our immigration laws as well? And look at how much money that is actually costing us.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Also please forgive the spelling etc. as it appears some diligent professional soul has spilled some sort of sticky liquid down in my keyboard. Its kinda like trying to type on one of the old, ok antique, manual typewriters.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Jon, I agree with Mick, organized criminal elements, which is not limited to what we would call “mafia” but can be a wide ranging form of criminal activity by any persons or groups, will certainly be involved as long as they feel they can still profit from a given substance. This has been the case in many parts of the world and would still be no matter what prohibition laws were lifted as long as the money was still there. Now, as to the philosophy of why people believe prohibition still works. Perhaps its because all though we do see the failures in the current policy, we see an even larger failure imminent in going the other route. If in fact prohibition was lifted and people were frre to use any and all manner of drugs they wished, how do you propose to provide these? Who would be the vendor? Who would control the costs of these drugs and ensure they were safe and of sufficient quality? The Goverment perhaps, a rather large criminal element already as some believe it to be. And if I remember my religous history correctly, and I could be wrong, the Catholic Church was the hub for approved scientific knowledge of the day. And the Vatican is still involved in astronomical research to this day with a modest, but well furnished observatory.
How about this concept, instead of lifting the prohibition in order to remove the term CRIMINAL from people who use drugs, they stop using illegal drugs and remove the term criminal from themselves. Sacastic, but only a little, think about it. If they are that unhappy being labeled a criminal for their actions, then merely stop doing the criminal act. If you get tired of getting speeding tickets, what would be the rational response? Petition to get the speed limits raised to the level you want them to be or just simply stop driving over the speed limit? Understand that I do fully believe it to be fact that there are people, and even the majority of them, that use drugs that do so quietly without bothering anyone. However, the media has shown so many that cant, wont or just plain dont have the ability to get high without some sort of criminal act as well as all the violence we see that until the population, as a whole, sees the general usage of drugs as a non-threat the laws will only get tougher. Appearance and perception counts for a whole lot here.
I shall leave you with this to consider. The definition of Addiction: An addiction is a strong appetite….Appetites defined as: An appetite is a disposition that generates desiresthat are urgent, oriented toward some rewarding behavior, periodically recuring, often in predictable circumstances, sated by fulfillment and generally provide pleasure.
Disease: A disease is some biological or psychological state that results in subfunctioning of the organism in a given set of enviromental and social circumstances. By definition this is a rather vague word.
To make this short, the general summery from all the documents I have from NAC (National Addiction Center) and John Hopkins University seem to be against the use of the term disease as applied to addiction and feel that Disability fits better as addiction displays more psychological disability oriented symptoms rather early on where as the disease like indicators do not appear until the addictive behaviors are in a more advanced stage. I would agree with this that disease does fit by definition, and addiction can cause disease, but it is an extremely poor choice because so many things can actually fall under its heading that are in fact not diseases.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Jon, medical science did not bring this to the forum, you did and since you have chosen to be its spokesman, I shall direct my comments to you. As to the pulp and not the bark, I quote “lets look at the crimes associated WITH PROSTITUTION in the one place where it is LEGAL in the US…NEVADA”. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that since you used the state name, that is what you actually meant since you seem so well informed. As for crimes associated with this particular location, I have been there, let one of the working girls get caught or even suspected of shorting the house and see how that goes for her. I dont believe it to be any secret about just how much organized crime controls the gaming industry in and around Las Vegas so I doubt that it would come as any shock to learn that they also have significant control in the prostitution trade there as well. I am just a simple country boy and perhaps I’m looking at the world thru eyes not educated enough to see what the rest of world of academia sees. But, I have been alive and paying attention long enough to see what the world, at least my little chunk of it, was like 20 or 30 years ago and have seen the way we have changed thinking on child rearing, crime and the way we continue to find reasons(excuses?) for criminal and or anti-social behavior. And in my unlearned opinion, it aint workin!!! You brought up Bonds and McGuire as being castigated. Do you find their behavior acceptable in light of the fact they CHOSE to use PEDs, against the rules, then lied about it and still want the record posted as a legitimate accomplishment against all the other players who followed the rules? Now, perhaps you might address the point of California voting down the decriminalizing of a small amount of Marijuana, if any state was thought to be able to get that one passed, it would have been California. And are you saying, as I am assuming from reading your posts, that the prohibition of drugs has caused the abuse and that if we were to overturn this prohibition that would eliminate this abuse? On June 2 you posted that you “fundamentally” believe drug use is a CHOICE and that there is still a lot of research being done into the core aspects of addiction and its physical nature. Now, several days later this has been determined as fact, that it is a disease? Science Jon, has in fact stated that the earth was flat and that it was also the center of the entire universe, at one time. People were killed who didnt follow this “science” belief and spoke out against it. This science you are refering to is nothing but a “best possible guess” formulated from the data they currently have. As more data is collected and researched it could very well change, to what I wouldnt dare even guess. More “pablum from the group think altar”? Criminal behavior is not the result of having some disease, mental illness or handicap I could understand. Saying its related to their experiences as a child or they didnt know how to cope with a major life change and turned to alcohol or drugs I could buy into as well. I agree that we are becoming a society of “pharmacuetical junkies”, but I think its because its easier to just take a pill and feel better rather than really address the true problem head on. Most people dont want to face their problems let alone acknowledge they have one. I also concede that yes, on the most basic meaning of the word, yes I do have social encounters with inmates. I used the term in its generaly understood use that I do NOT socialize with them. I supervise them, direct them, control them and yes, at times I help them with problems when they come to me looking for help. I consider this a professional encounter, not one of a social nature and in my position as an officer this is a real correctional practice but we also know to temper the cold professional with human understanding and compassion, when its called for. Jon, I respect your opinions, and I will look into the research you say exists.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Jon, while I do agree that Marijuana might be a legitimate substance for consideration to legalize, it was presented to the people of California on the ballot and was in fact, voted down. So, the majority did say no, not the politicians or the police, all though they were allowed to vote as well. As for drug and alcohol addiction being a disease like cancer, please, stop it. Calling addiction a disease is a cop out to what it really is, a poor personal choice that got out of control. I was an alcoholic at 21 years of age, started drinking when I was 15, poor choice on my part, no one elses. I woke up one morning in a puddle of my own vomit and realized that I could have killed myself and I was NOT going to go out that way. End of drinking, not another drop for 12 years. Now I can enjoy a beer and do so about once every 2 or 3 weeks. I had no disease, I had a control problem. Alcohol and drug addiction are results of poor personal choices, Cancer is not, in most cases. In case your wondering, I did not seek out AA or any other counseling group, I made the decision to quit and that was all I needed. Same with smoking, which I quit as well because I decided that I didnt want to smoke any more. No one else was going to make me quit, and man did my wife try lol. Also, as for our business being social and political, YES, it is very political, but I do not have a social encounter with inmates, that is not why I am employed. I do not consider inmates to be in my peer group. And if you check, I believe you will find that prostitution is NOT legal in Nevada, it is not legal inside the city limits of Las Vegas either. It is “legal” only in parts of that county.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Rational, dont mistake freedom with a free-for-all. It is an insult to all those who have or are continueing to fight and die for your right to be an idiot. Freedom must have rules, regulations and laws to make sure that it is there for ALL people to enjoy without fear that the meth addict is going to freak out and try and burn your house down or the heroin addict is going to break in and kill your family so they can steal your TV to get more dope. I will admit that there most likely are people out there who can smoke a joint in their own home without bothering anyone just like there are people who can consume alcohol and not be out of control. BUT, as we see and hear every day, there are a large number who cant and a family who was at one moment enjoying their freedom is now destroyed, by alcohol, a substance that IS controlled and regulated. Now consider the ramifications of tossing all those other drugs into the mix. In my opinion this is an unacceptable price to pay and efforts need to be made to try and keep the chaos to a minimum in order for EVERYONE to have their chance to enjoy life and liberty. If this makes me a neo-fascist sockpuppet, then so be it but I will be a sockpuppet with honor, dignity and pride. I doubt you can say the same for your Chomsky, Hawking, Dawkins sockpuppet status.

Topic: The Club House / Where in the world are you

Hope and change brother, hope and change. Hey, it worked for that other guy lol!!!

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Ok, I’ll be the bad guy and say it. Rational law, please, for the love of god STFU and go jump off that bridge Mick was telling you to build. Sorry if I have upset anyone, not you Rational, but I have a very low tolerence for stupid.

Topic: The Club House / Where in the world are you

Thank you Mudflap. I hope to be a regular on here and maybe get a little more activity going.

Topic: The Club House / Where in the world are you

Good evening all, Ohio DRC here, working at MCI for 21 yrs now. And wondering just how far the pendulum has to go before it starts to swing back lol. I can still remember when it was a cold, dark and evil place. And it was a much better time to work then, IMHO.

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

I am new to the forum all though I have been a regular reader of it for a cpl yrs now and I would like to add a little input to this discussion. I see both sides but what I think the ney sayers are missing is the big picture. Riggs is correct in that SHOULD an encounter occur, we MUST have a gunfighter mindset in order to give the best chance for survival. It is NOT a mindset that we would conduct our day to day duty with, it is not possible to carry that level for more than 15 min or so. The body just cant hold that level of hyper awareness before it starts to lose its edge. Just to add a little insight I spent 4 yrs USMC, 21 yrs Ohio DRC, 7 yrs as a firearms instructor for the dept and collected a few medals and trophys from various combat shooting matches. Please consider what Riggs is saying to be a situational use of this mindset, much like we use comedian, counselor etc as has been stated previously.