Topic: The Club House / Deadly Force Use

Let me join Mudflap and welcome you back SSG Eakes and thank you for your service! In retrospect, I am most thankful that I can answer the question “NO”. If the answer was “yes” I don’t know if I could sleep at night because someone would have died due to not using DF.

Be Safe,

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

Breaker breaker 19…KAJC 9910 here…Anybody got their ears on? You got Reb here, comeon back…

When I started here at the Sheriff’s Office, we kept paper logs. Our control board was a board with cup hooks were we hung mosaic tiles with the inmates names on them, color coded for classification… Used typewriters for our reports, typed by the post 1 admin officer. Now we have computers at every post…WITH INTERNET ACCESS. Electronic logs, our own “secure” intra-net.

Daggum! HOW DID WE EVER DO IT “BACK THEN” in them olden days?

Y’all keep the shiney side up…KAJC 9910…out

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

“C”, I imagine that it is for your admin to contact you more easily? I mean, are you on call for emergencies? Like a riot?

Be Safe

Topic: The Club House / CCW

Squeeze, Oh yes, I agree absolutely. Back when I was working transportation, my partner and I would do “what if” situations with each other. This is important for teams. You then know first how your partner is wired and you can work out kinks or shortcomings etc.

Be Safe

Topic: The Club House / CCW

It is a “Use of Force” vs “Response to Resistance”. I have not drawn my firearm to “make” someone “do” something. I draw it to make them “stop” doing something. I know that is simplistic and somebody is going to “what if” me and I hope Major Tom doesn’t beat me up too bad, but think about it. They won’t get out of the transport van? No, you would not draw on them JUST FOR THAT. “Boss, I shot another one for not gettting out…” But an inmate shanking another in the back of the same van? “Yeah, I wanted him to quit killing the guy.”

I fear we are ourselves falling into the “what if” trap that we all see in firearm courses. These hypothectical situations trying to build a situation where we could or could not shoot someone. Life situations are not black or white. There are many grey areas. If you carry a firearm, on and/or off duty and you do not train with the same gusto that the bad guys train, and If you do not feel the need to atain a level of profeciency, and if you honestly can not see yourself, in a given situation, pulling the trigger and shooting someone center of mass, then WHY DO YOU CARRY? I believe even Dr. George Thompson, the founder of Verbal Judo® would ask the same question.

I personally, will do all that is REASONABLE to avoid having to hurt someone. I have used humor, reason, negotiation, the list goes on. But once “it” hits the fan, I am prepared to do what I have to, to defend me and mine…or die fighting. I wish not to die as the victims of Lubi’s in Texas, hiding. One armed and prepared sheepdog there, and there is a whole new story on the news.

Topic: The Club House / CCW

Pamela, I think that you will find within the Corrections community, more of us have experienced like situations with family members. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your son.

Topic: The Club House / CCW

Pamela, listen to Mick on this one. There is much more going on here. “Love and Trust” does not get a gun and rob a bank. There is help needed and there are many rehabilitative programs available in our prisons. Hope this helps.

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

Pamela, There is no day-to-day need in the typical correctional institution for cell phones that cannot be addressed with other means of communication. Inmates DO NOT have ANY need for a cell phone, that is to say that I cannnot think of one situation where there is a true need for an inmate to have one. Granted, in a terrorist type attack, officers having cell phones may be needed, but even then, most institutions have digital radios now.
Please don’t take my response as an attack. If you can share a situation where a cell phone would be necessary, please share it.

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

Point well taken, Mick. Oh, we have had our share of scumbags. I have to wonder, were they dirty from the ourset and our hiring proceedure failed? Or, were they “clean” when hired and then the job changed them. Personally, I think it is a character flaw. We had a sworn police officer that killed an innocent store owner for $50,000. Strangled him in the back of his police car and drove around with him dead in the back seat until he could dump the body in a ditch about 3 hours later. That is NOT, could NOT, have ever been someone that had an “Officer’s Heart”. They had to be very good at being a chameleon, for a while at least. But again…
Point Well Taken. We have to always be on the vigil.

Be Safe.

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

Good one! You almost got me. I thought this was for real until you started trying to correct my spelling…And then I saw yours. I will not play “show me yours but you can’t see mine”.

You want to know about me? Look at my profile…It is not blank like yours. Until you show that you want a legitimate discussion…I’m done. I can argue at work if I like it that much.

*Edit*_ After reading all the posts again, I can see from Shakey’s post and my answer, that there may have been a disconnect in communication. I stated at a point, emphsis on professional. What I was and am trying to convey is that regardless of being a Correctional Officer, IF you are required to carry a firearm, you need to have the PROFESSIONAL MINDSET. Take requals seriously. Go beyond mimimum standards. The word “GUNFIGHTER” is more of a situational term. If the SITUATION calls, we have to step up and be what the situation dictates. Situations call for us to be many things…Counselor, Disciplinarian, Comic, and yes unfortunately at times a fighter. However, our goal is not with the INTENT TO INJURE it is to PREVENT INJURY. That is why in an altercation, the video the jury sees is 4 Officers on 1 Inmate and we have to explain that we do that to try to restrain, NOT TO INJURE the inmate. If it was 1 on 1, that would be a fight.

Topic: Security Central / Tasers in the Jail?

Yes, our policy warns of this. With our Response to Resistance matrix, there is a (small) separation between the levels of resistance that each can be used. OC can be used at a lower level of resistance.

Thanks for the Heads Up.

Be Safe.

Topic: Juvenile Jam / No Restraint?

I can understand the different phylosiphy. We have, in our attempt to protect “Freedom of the Press”, allowed (at times) court proceedings to become a circus. It takes a strong judge to keep the proceedings in line.

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

Your knee jerk reaction without getting all the facts causes me concern and I have to be careful not to reply in like kind.

At this point I will not defend what I have already taken care to qualify. If you would like to back up and read the post again and then ask me to clairify, I will be happy to. If you would like my credentials, I will be happy to give them. What I will do is say that you are not going to get your wish (that I am still on probation or that my career will be short).

Your opinion is your opinion…right or wrong. I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to be wrong…On at least six points that I count. Your assurance of never exchanging in a gunfight for one. There is a close personal friend/co-worker that would beg to differ, If she could. I can show you where her grave is and you can try to tell her.
EDIT I did what I did not want to do…give a knee jerk response. After contemplating a few minutes, YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT. Statically, Corrections Officers DO NOT engauge in gunfights. That would take two to “fight”. Corrections Officers are shot and killed without ever getting a shot off IF THEY even have a firearm. end of edit

If you wish, we can back up. You talk (type) nice, I will talk (type) nice and I will be happy to have a fruitful discussion and exchange of ideas.

Be Safe.

Topic: Juvenile Jam / No Restraint?

It is gonna make for good reality TV. There are already incidents of UFC in courtrooms.

Topic: Juvenile Jam / No Restraint?

It was reported today that the State Supreme Court handed down a decesion that Juvenile offenders will no longer be restrained in the courtroom unless the Judge orders it if he feels the Juvenile is a threat to his own safety or the safety of others, or he feels that the offender may disrupt the proceedings.

One of the advocates said that this was a great move forward as to how we treat juveniles. She said that it was a shame seeing juveniles brought into the court shackled. That it could damage their self esteem and self image.

In the words of one of my mentors, Bugs Bunny…“What a Moorune!”

Topic: The Club House / Deadly Force Use

I hear ya. It is more difficult pushing the stuff up hill cuz we all know how stuff rolls. That was one reason I came out of our training section and came back to operations. As a Sergeant I have the ability to make a safer atmosphere for the Officers assigned to me. I hold front line supervisors partially responsable for whatever the mindset is. Good or Bad. However, if the General Orders or Operational Orders aren’t there, it is harder to change the atmosphere.

April 2013 is my DROP date. I want to leave my Officers prepared to carry on safer. “We go home the way we came to work”.

Be Safe Brother.

Topic: The Club House / Deadly Force Use

Gunfighter, this is what we have to change…Our mindset…Please look at the thread I posted “Professional Gunfighters?” I think you will see that we are on the same page. Gone are the days of “I’m JUST a guard.” Here at the JSO, we worked for years to even get our own Dept. to recognize us as professional, law enforcement officers. When I started, we were not authorized to carry off duty. They didn’t want a bunch of “Lone Rangers”. We got that changed. It just makes sense. We have changed the way our department looks at us.

But now is the time to CHANGE HOW WE LOOK AT OURSELVES. How we carry ourselves. Our habits. Our training.

On December 7, 1941 our parents’ and grandparents’ (Heck maybe even some of our lives) lives changed forever. On 9/11 there was another change…Just this year, Ft. Hood and Lakewood, Wash. have been another wake-up call.

We (Corrections Officers, Sworn LEO and Military) work at a job (life calling?) were we see things that man was not created by God to see. We do this willingly SO OUR LOVED ONE DON’T HAVE TO SEE THEM. There are creatures walking this earth that should NEVER SEE THE OUTSIDE OF A CELL. If we are going to be counted among the “sheepdogs” , we HAVE TO HAVE EACH OTHER’S BACK.

I have chosen to live my life by the Bushido Code for one. Oh, I do consider myself a non-exemplary Christian, but the principles go hand in hand.

More Later, Be Safe,

Topic: The Club House / Deadly Force Use

The State of Florida has adopted “Response to Resistance” rather than “Use of Force” verbage. And specifically mentions the “Totallity of Curcumstances”. Not pickin a fight here (pun intended), but I understand gunfighter’s point. I don’t care if it is a 12 yo “thug” or 70 yo granny. It is THEIR actions that I respond to. Back when we taught the old linear continum, even then we were authorized one level ABOVE their force.
Again, it is MINDSET…and heart.
My Officers KNOW that I would fight and die for them. I KNOW that they would do the same for me. HOWEVER, beyond that (don’t read anything into this, I am going to go out on a limb here), hear me well, in a deadly force situation and one of my Officer’s or my life is at stake, I WOULD KILL FOR ONE OF MY OFFICERS OR MY LIFE.
I been there. I used deadly force. He (the inmate) stopped fighting. We both survived without going to the hospital.

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

I may have opened a can of worms here, but my point is that IF:
You work in a position that requires you to be armed and or you are issued a firearm and
You are required to re-qulify on a timely basis
You are a professional gunfighter (emphisis on professional).
It is the mindset to consider.
FBI statistics show that the adverage gunfight lasts about 2 seconds. We owe it to our loved ones (not to mention our department and ourselves) to maintain a level of skill if we are to survive in a hostile environment.
When you look at to total time fighting vs training the Military has us beat. Not compairing us to military, compairing ratios. We fight (not just guns here) a heck of a lot more than we train.
The word “gunfighter” is not a good or bad term…is just is what it is. If you carry, you need to have the gunfighter mindset. You are paid. You are a professional.

Be Safe.

Topic: The Club House / Deadly Force Use

Gunfighter,
Just read your article…COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER. The situations you gave are real life. I could see each one of them in my mind’s eye. I had envisioned each of them and the locations at each of our three facilities. With your permission, I wish to share this with my officers. I saw the share button and have shared it on my facebook page.

Thanks Brother…And I take that word seriously.

Topic: A Broader View / Is it really as negative as it sounds?

Karma, as a 21 year veteran here in Jacksonville, Fl. (first, Howdy neighbor!), I must ditto what Mick, OCCD and Illinois have told you. You will see both ends of the spectrum. One of the things I tell our new recruits is, after about a year your family will tell you that you have changed. Your social circle will become other COs. Your head will be on a swivel coming out of stores walking through parking lots. Not that any of this is bad.

Personally, If I knew that I had to do another 20 years where I am, I would do it with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. Don’t get me wrong, my EOS date is circled on the calendar (April 13, 2013…but who’s counting LOL).

There are female officers that I would have no problems with them filling in on my crew. Then there are the ones, well, you know. One of the differences between the two that comes to mind is MINDSET. How you conduct yourself. Human nature is human nature. I have seen little petite small frame females do just fine with big ol’ “John Coffee” size inmates (see The Green Mile to find out who John Coffee is…i.e. BIG).

As for watching out for blackmailing. Use the “Bell, Book and Candle” to vet your decisions. If you have to make a decision, first is there anything written “in the book”. guidelines, rules SOP, etc. Second do “bells” go off..Your concince. Last, how would you feel about your decision in the “Light of day”? As in if you read about it in the newspaper. Or would you make the same decision if your mom or dad or pastor or sheriff where standing there.

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

Shakey, You are SO RIGHT. The ultimate responsibility lies with the offending officer. While we have had our share of “dirty” officers, I have been blessed to not have had to work personally with them. Our Sheriff, who prior to being elected was our Director of Corrections and is a 25+ police veteran demands high standards of integrity. I am further blessed to have the best officers working directly with me that any supervisor could want.

I understand the contraband drops, transportation concerns etc. I must admit, our policies are more lax, but we are a medium security county prison. Inmates are generally sentenced to one year or less. We are not Pelican Bay or anything close.

Be Safe Brother,

Gary

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

Wow Mick,that is what is great about these forums. You really get a sense of the different approaches. What I know of Ireland, I love. I find it interesting that your facility has the option of military. Do all facilities there have this approach? Is this due to gun control restrictions?

Shakey, I wish to offer this, since:
1 your officers do have armed positions and
2 you are required to qualify annualy

Hince, it is my opinion, you are a professional gunfighter. You are paid to maintain a level of skill. See what I mean?

This question was posed to me by one of my fellow firearm instructors. He is on the “police” side of our department. We had this discussion during one of our down times between shoots. Really changed the way I look at that part of our job. Does your department authorize off duty cary? If not, do you have a concealed carry permit?

Topic: The Club House / Professional Gunfighters?

Mick,

Where do you work? Do your officers conduct transportation of inmates? Are there guard towers?

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

I understand…and sad. I teach my officers that we have no control over what gets thrown on our badge…On the side that faces the public. What we DO control is the other side. The side that faces us. That side needs to be the shiny side. Yet, there are those who will (figuratively speaking) shine the public side, while the back side is dirty. They are not our Brothers. Wolves in Sheepdog clothing.
It is easy to say “just get rid of them”, however in practice, it is another matter.

Stay Safe Brother,