I say that when you retire, you get ungodly stoned and debate this issue to see if it makes sense or not. Grant it, being ungodly stoned would indeed make it nearly impossible to debate this issue rationally but you should go to Denver first before you attempt it.

muskrat, no one is questioning whether marijuana or any other drug has deleterious affects on any individual…of course it does…I do not advocate people to use drugs…

The entire issue of the effects examined within those studies (difficulty concentrating, lower academic performance, social anxiety, etc.) are presented…the MOST PRIMARY SALIENT FACTOR that is currently ABSENT in presenting the case for eliminating prohibition CANNOT be presented however…you do know what that factor is, RIGHT? Of course you do!!!

That is RIGHT!!! No one CAN DO a study that examines the differences between a group of people who use marijuana FREELY, without FEAR of being caught and imprisoned, and those who use in a more restrictive society…I would THEORIZE that many of the issues presented AS CONS to marijuana use WOULD DISAPPEAR if this was so…

Where did I say anything about eliminating security in my answer regarding immigration? Keep on checking and making sure things are secure by all means. You could still do this with a totally open (i.e., all persons wishing to conduct any form of legitimate work are WELCOME) border.

I suggest that if one is to make assumptions about the effects of any illicit drug that they must first understand the effect that said drug has on any individual. Research has been done on marijuana and its effects on not only a person’s motor function but also on its long term affects on their individual personalities and mental well being. In a study conducted by Buckner et al in 2010 they did find that;

… among students who reported using marijuana 5 times or more in the past year, 40.1% had difficulty concentrating after using…and students who use marijuana in addition to alcohol (although not necessarily at the same time) are more likely to perform poorly on tests, miss class, and experience memory loss than students who only use alcohol (Rhodes, Peters, Perrino, & Bryant, 2008; Shillington & Clapp, 2001).

In fact, marijuana use appears related to lower academic performance. SAT scores have been shown to be at least 50 points lower among college students who smoked marijuana every day compared to marijuana users who have never used marijuana more than 10 times in one month (Kouri et al., 1995).

Marijuana use and marijuana-related problems among college students are related to social anxiety (Buckner, Bonn-Miller, Zvolensky, & Schmidt, 2007; Buckner, Mallott, Schmidt, & Taylor, 2006; Buckner & Schmidt, 2008, 2009; Buckner, Schmidt, Bobadilla, & Taylor, 2006), depression (Buckner, Keough, & Schmidt, 2007), and schizotypal personality traits (Dumas et al., 2002). Marijuana use (regardless of whether infrequent or frequent) was associated with greater mental health problems (anxiety, depression, hostility, interpersonal sensitivity, paranoia, psychoticism).

Please consider this in any further discussions on this board on whether the legalization of said drug should be completed as its effects are of the type that any normal individual would not want to be readily available at their local Kwik-E-Mart along side of alcohol which does nothing but makes the effects even worse. This is empirical research as reported in a peer reviewed academic journal. Therefore the research is sound as apposed to any individuals biased observations and opinion.

Also, in the matter of immigration laws and ones ability to conduct their business anywhere in the world…well they can so long as they do it legally. Immigration is an easily obtained goal for anybody wishing to come to the United States so long as it is done legally. Don’t forget that trade agreements like NAFTA does supply the ability for any business man to trade with any other country so long as it is done legally. We cannot as a nation afford to open our borders though and not monitor the traffic to and fro. This would open a wide whole in our nation’s security. You do know what security is don’t you? It’s what we in corrections eat, breath and preach everyday.

Rhodes, W. A., Peters, R. J., Jr., Perrino, C. S., & Bryant, S. (2008). Substance use problems reported by historically Black college students: combined marijuana and alcohol use versus alcohol alone. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, 40(2), 201−205. doi:10.1037/0033-2909.112.1.64

Kouri, E., Pope, H. G., Yurgelun-Todd, D., & Gruber, S. (1995). Attributes of heavy vs. occasional marijuana smokers in a college population. Biological Psychiatry, 38(7), 475−481. doi:10.1016/0006-3223(94)00325-W

Brook, D.W., Brook, J. S., Zhang, C., Cohen, P., &Whiteman, M. (2002).Drug use and the risk of major depressive disorder, alcohol dependence and substance use disorders.Archives of General Psychiatry, 59(11), 1039−1044. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.59.11.1039

Buckner, J. D., Bonn-Miller, M. O., Zvolensky, M. J., & Schmidt, N. B. (2007). Marijuana use motives and social anxiety among marijuana-using young adults. Addictive Behaviors, 32(10), 2238−2252. doi:10.1016/j.addbeh.2007.04.004

Buckner, J. D., Keough, M. E., & Schmidt, N. B. (2007). Problematic alcohol and cannabis use among young adults: the roles of depression and discomfort and distress tolerance. Addictive Behaviors, 32(9), 1957−1963. doi:10.1016/j.addbeh.2006.12.019

Buckner, J. D., Mallott, M. A., Schmidt, N. B., & Taylor, J. (2006). Peer influence and gender differences in problematic cannabis use among individualswith social anxiety. Journal of Anxiety Disorders, 20(8), 1087−1102. doi:10.1016/j.janxdis.2006.03.002

Buckner, J. D., & Schmidt, N. B. (2008). Marijuana effect expectancies: relations to social anxiety and marijuana use problems. Addictive Behaviors, 33(11), 1477−1483. doi:10.1016/j.addbeh.2008.06.017

Buckner, J. D., & Schmidt, N. B. (2009). Social anxiety disorder and marijuana use problems: the mediating role of marijuana effect expectancies. Depression and Anxiety, 26(9), 864−870. doi:10.1002/da.20567

Buckner, J. D., Schmidt, N. B., Bobadilla, L., & Taylor, J. (2006). Social anxiety and problematic cannabis use: evaluating the moderating role of stress reactivity and perceived coping. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 44(7), 1007−1015. doi:10.1016/j.brat.2005.08.002

Dumas, P., Soaud, M., Bouafia, S., Gutknecht, C., Ecochard, R., Daléry, J., et al. (2002). Cannabis use correlates with schizotypal personality traits in healthy students. Psychiatry Research, 109(1), 27−35. doi:10.1016/S0165-1781(01)00358-4

Crakin, another point you brought up was how the insurance companies are more likely to pay if they view substance abuse as a physical problem rather than a mental problem…

This is very salient…ONE, the entire issue and subject of MENTAL ILLNESS is directly related to INCARCERATION…A man will look at another MAN and determine…“HE can walk, he can talk, he has two good arms and legs…THEREFORE he is fine and HAS NO ILLNESS!” We refuse to accept it AS ILLNESS!!! AND CHRONIC!!! PERSISTENT!!! TWO…We do not pay for the treatment of mental illness ANYMORE either…WE INCARCERATE!!!

As a matter of fact Crakin, yes… I do advocate the elimination of immigration laws…I believe it is evident they do not work…I believe a man should be allowed to conduct his legitimate business ANYWHERE in the world…

Well, the last place I would expect to see a spammer would be a forum on correctional policy/direction…guess it shows anything is possible…

Actually, the use of the tobacco black market demonstrates two very important points…one, SUBSTANTIALLY prohibiting the legal purchase of tobacco through the use of exorbitant taxes and its subsequent unintended affect of establishing a CHEAPER black market…and two, what penalty would you propose on the smoker or consumer of the illgotten tobacco?

A pack of cigarettes costs all of 15 cents to manufacture and get to market…yet Mick tells me the GOVERNMENT in Ireland adds $12.85 cents in TAXES to each pack…and you want to call the drug user the criminal!?!?!?

Examine this issue in this light. First, people have civil liberties…These liberties remain if they do not cross over the boundary and infringe on my civil liberty. Should not the goal of any society be to INCREASE and FOSTER civil liberty? Should not another goal of any societybe to HELP people reduce or eliminate their dependency on both illicit and licit substances.

How does prohibition or substantially prohibiting (through the use of exorbitant taxation) the use of drugs/alcohol accomplish either goal? That is the question…I submit the answer is simply…IT DOES NOT help to accomplish either goal!!!

It does however make for a more violent and crime-ridden society thereby increasing the dependence on drugs and alcohol in order to cope with the madness…

Yes, Virginia…the government is well aware of ALL of this and is complicit with its perpetration on the public…They will collect their share…either through the taxes at the register or the kicking up of the envelopes from Vito and Guido on the street corner…

As professionals, it is our responsibility to QUESTION the ethical and moral basis for ALL ASPECTS of our existence…and how to treat people as ENDS TO THEMSELVES and not pawns for our pleasure…

Jon, I used that sentance about people stopping their use to stop being labeled as criminals to go along with the other example about stopping speeding to stop getting tickets. Both activities are illegal, and the rational response should be to discontinue the current illegal act to end the labeling, correct? Prohibition has failed simply because PEOPLE have refused to follow the LAW. Just like you expound that those who traffic in black market drugs should be penalized for failure to abide by the law, why are you giving these people(drug users) an exception? They are willfully refusing to obey the current law simply based on personal desires, and this is no excuse to say that a law is invalid considering the FACT that the majority DO consider the law valid and needed. See California and the vote to legalize just a small amount of ONLY Marijuana.

Cancer (a disease) the takes many forms, some attributed to addictive behaviors such as smoking, can be detected well before the person exhibits the first signs of or symptoms of having the disease. Did the addictive behavior of smoking cause the cancer(disease) or did the disease(cancer) cause the addictive behavior of smoking?
Did I have the disease of alcoholism before I had my first beer? Was it a progressive cumpulsive disorder that lead me to the state of being an alcoholic? I had no physical or mental distress (DTs) from my abrupt stopping.
An interesting idea to ponder is why in the US we call it a disease, and this was told to me by a person involved in the study of addiction. It has been labeled a disease not because it is, but because it is easier to get the insurance companies to pay for its treatment if it is considered more a physical ailment than a mental problem.

Immigration is failing also Jon, and people are getting killed over that as well. Do you propose we end our immigration laws as well? And look at how much money that is actually costing us.

Jon the reason I brought up Tobacco was to show that criminal elements are involved in the supply and sale of a Legal drug. Let me give you some statistics. 200 Million illegal cigarettes were seized by the Police and Customs in Ireland last year. Now the authorities estimate that they catch about 5% of all the Illegal cigarettes smuggled. Personally I believe this figure to be optimistic. But even if it’s accurate that’s one hell of a lot of tobacco that is sold on the black market. And the biggest importers of illegal tobacco into Ireland are paramilitary gangs. The profits from selling this legal drug on the black market are huge. The price of 20 cigarettes sold legally is 9 Euro ($13) The price of a black market pack is 4 Euro ($6). You do the math. The people who buy this black market tobacco do not see themselves as aiding and abetting criminals nor would they view their own actions as criminal because tobacco is legal. Yet by buying these products they are doing both. All they see is they can buy 2 packs of the black market tobacco for the same price of a 1 legal pack. And in the financial straits people find themselves in today, do you think that buying a legalized drug would be any different. And remember there is no quality control on the black market products.

Mick, there is no question there would continue to be an underground market of sale in order to avoid the taxes levied on any legal drug. These people are criminals and need to be dealt with appropriately. When I speak about lifting the term CRIMINAL, I am talking about the user; however, anyone who circumvents taxes is a CRIMINAL. LOCK THEM UP!!! Of course, there will always be what you propose, but a vast majority of the people who use tobacco, alcohol, or other legal drugs, obtain these drugs LEGALLY, through the appropriate channels. Alcohol is still sold in many pharmacies, as is tobacco…Marijuana could be treated the exact same way…

Crakin, you proposed the same sentence again, being: “How about this concept, instead of lifting the prohibition in order to remove the term CRIMINAL from people who use drugs, they stop using illegal drugs and remove the term criminal from themselves.” I do not understand what is so hard to grasp here…

PROHIBITION IS DEMONSTRABLY PROVEN TO HAVE FAILED…We went through a significant period in our country where we dealt with ALCOHOL the same way…what happened!?!?!? A DRASTIC INCREASE IN CRIME!!! PEOPLE, MANY OF THEM INNOCENT, were killed over the NOW ILLEGALIZED trade and sale of ALCOHOL!!!

The point is this…PEOPLE WANT THEIR DRUGS, whether it is tobacco, marijuana, alcohol, heroin, opium, cocaine, etc…THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET IT, UPT TO AND INCLUDING MURDER…Mass grave in Texas found….why is there? DIRECTLY associated with the ILLEGAL MARIJUANA trafficking…

You brought up tobacco Mick…tell me…any MASS GRAVES directly associated with the illegal sale of tobacco?

Now, if either of you can provide any evidence that PROHIBITION has worked, I will of course of cease my discussion and utilize this new evidence in the formation of a new education program for the people I serve.

As far as defining addiction…

The American Society of Addiction Medicine has this definition for Addiction:

Addiction is a primary, chronic DISEASE (emphasis mine) of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in the individual pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors. The addiction is characterized by impairment in behavioral control, craving, inability to consistently abstain, and diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships. Like other chronic DISEASES (emphasis mine), addiction can involve cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is PROGRESSIVE and can result in disability or premature death.

As with any other DISEASE, treatment takes many forms…up to and including or shared experience Crakin… (i.e., a moment of clarity)…however, it must be stated this is part of a CYCLE…and you must remain aware of this…

Also please forgive the spelling etc. as it appears some diligent professional soul has spilled some sort of sticky liquid down in my keyboard. Its kinda like trying to type on one of the old, ok antique, manual typewriters.

Jon, I agree with Mick, organized criminal elements, which is not limited to what we would call “mafia” but can be a wide ranging form of criminal activity by any persons or groups, will certainly be involved as long as they feel they can still profit from a given substance. This has been the case in many parts of the world and would still be no matter what prohibition laws were lifted as long as the money was still there. Now, as to the philosophy of why people believe prohibition still works. Perhaps its because all though we do see the failures in the current policy, we see an even larger failure imminent in going the other route. If in fact prohibition was lifted and people were frre to use any and all manner of drugs they wished, how do you propose to provide these? Who would be the vendor? Who would control the costs of these drugs and ensure they were safe and of sufficient quality? The Goverment perhaps, a rather large criminal element already as some believe it to be. And if I remember my religous history correctly, and I could be wrong, the Catholic Church was the hub for approved scientific knowledge of the day. And the Vatican is still involved in astronomical research to this day with a modest, but well furnished observatory.
How about this concept, instead of lifting the prohibition in order to remove the term CRIMINAL from people who use drugs, they stop using illegal drugs and remove the term criminal from themselves. Sacastic, but only a little, think about it. If they are that unhappy being labeled a criminal for their actions, then merely stop doing the criminal act. If you get tired of getting speeding tickets, what would be the rational response? Petition to get the speed limits raised to the level you want them to be or just simply stop driving over the speed limit? Understand that I do fully believe it to be fact that there are people, and even the majority of them, that use drugs that do so quietly without bothering anyone. However, the media has shown so many that cant, wont or just plain dont have the ability to get high without some sort of criminal act as well as all the violence we see that until the population, as a whole, sees the general usage of drugs as a non-threat the laws will only get tougher. Appearance and perception counts for a whole lot here.
I shall leave you with this to consider. The definition of Addiction: An addiction is a strong appetite….Appetites defined as: An appetite is a disposition that generates desiresthat are urgent, oriented toward some rewarding behavior, periodically recuring, often in predictable circumstances, sated by fulfillment and generally provide pleasure.
Disease: A disease is some biological or psychological state that results in subfunctioning of the organism in a given set of enviromental and social circumstances. By definition this is a rather vague word.
To make this short, the general summery from all the documents I have from NAC (National Addiction Center) and John Hopkins University seem to be against the use of the term disease as applied to addiction and feel that Disability fits better as addiction displays more psychological disability oriented symptoms rather early on where as the disease like indicators do not appear until the addictive behaviors are in a more advanced stage. I would agree with this that disease does fit by definition, and addiction can cause disease, but it is an extremely poor choice because so many things can actually fall under its heading that are in fact not diseases.

Jon the core of your argument is that Legalization remove the criminal element from the equation. I am afraid that this is a misguided idea. Many legal prescription drugs are sold on the black market by criminals. Prime examples are Oxycodone (Oxycontin),Flurazepam (Dalmane),Diazepam (Valium),Lorazepam (Ativan) and the list goes on. Just because one can get these substances legally doesn’t mean that the criminal element is cut out of the loop. Even the most common of all drugs Tobacco has criminal gangs involved in smuggling it and selling it below market value (No tax). And as for Legalization of Prostitution bringing it main stream. Yes in some cases this would work out. Where the women are willing to work within the law and pay their taxes etc. There again you got a problem. Trafficked women are usually under threat of violence to either themselves and or their families back home. So to say that they would not lie to the authorities about them being happy to work in this or that establishment out of fear would naive.

Ok…let me look at your response…

If one of the working girls gets caught shorting the house…Well, that would be a criminal act in and of itself…just like a cashier stealing from the till at the convenience store…That is crime, period…

You remain glued to the concept that organized crime somehow remains attached to operations in Vegas…in fact, many of the casinoes in Vegas are owned by Wall Street brokers and traders…shares are split if not publically traded on the market…Of course, most people view these types as bigger crooks than the mob, but gambling is legal…and since prostitution is legal also, then the term CRIMINAL ceases to exist in the performance of the activity…

If you notice my post, I do say “fundamentally,” in regard to choice; HOWEVER, that does not eliminate the core disease…Addiction is multifaceted disease, affecting all areas of the human…When parents tell children that smoking stunts their growth, they are not necessarily referring to the physical growth…Smoking stunts growth in areas of emotion, spirit, society, economy, etc…The same as cancer or any other disease…Science has addressed addiction, the same as cancer, on many fronts…go to a cancer clinic and ask them if all they offer is chemo…Check it out, then go to an addictions recovery clinic and tell me what the difference is…I submit you will find not much…

Man is always in search of reasons…it is the process that DRIVES further knowledge…not an attempt to make an excuse…or to eliminate punishment…Fo you to say that science “ain’t workin,”…well, put away your teflon pans and ceramic tiles…

Yes, the election results of California, as reported, were against legalization of marijuana…The whole point of this thread is to view the underlying philosophy of why people in this world continue to believe prohibition is the answer…Prohibition does not cause further abuse…I never stated or otherwise intimated that in any of my posts…Neither is there any evidence that legalizing drug use will cause abuse or use of any drug to increase…What eliminating Prohibition would do is TAKE AWAY the term CRIMINAL from a person who uses drugs…as well it should…

Science has never stated the world was flat or the center of the universe…the Catholic Church did…and you are right…it KILLED people who disagreed or otherwise thought to speak or think differently (Galileo, Copernicus, et. al.) Much like modern society is seeking to do with the madness of Prohibition…

TOO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE NAME OF A FAILED DRUG WAR ON DRUGS!!! Let us speak united as a people…We do not advocate drug use, but let us change things in order to stop the needless killing…

Jon, medical science did not bring this to the forum, you did and since you have chosen to be its spokesman, I shall direct my comments to you. As to the pulp and not the bark, I quote “lets look at the crimes associated WITH PROSTITUTION in the one place where it is LEGAL in the US…NEVADA”. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that since you used the state name, that is what you actually meant since you seem so well informed. As for crimes associated with this particular location, I have been there, let one of the working girls get caught or even suspected of shorting the house and see how that goes for her. I dont believe it to be any secret about just how much organized crime controls the gaming industry in and around Las Vegas so I doubt that it would come as any shock to learn that they also have significant control in the prostitution trade there as well. I am just a simple country boy and perhaps I’m looking at the world thru eyes not educated enough to see what the rest of world of academia sees. But, I have been alive and paying attention long enough to see what the world, at least my little chunk of it, was like 20 or 30 years ago and have seen the way we have changed thinking on child rearing, crime and the way we continue to find reasons(excuses?) for criminal and or anti-social behavior. And in my unlearned opinion, it aint workin!!! You brought up Bonds and McGuire as being castigated. Do you find their behavior acceptable in light of the fact they CHOSE to use PEDs, against the rules, then lied about it and still want the record posted as a legitimate accomplishment against all the other players who followed the rules? Now, perhaps you might address the point of California voting down the decriminalizing of a small amount of Marijuana, if any state was thought to be able to get that one passed, it would have been California. And are you saying, as I am assuming from reading your posts, that the prohibition of drugs has caused the abuse and that if we were to overturn this prohibition that would eliminate this abuse? On June 2 you posted that you “fundamentally” believe drug use is a CHOICE and that there is still a lot of research being done into the core aspects of addiction and its physical nature. Now, several days later this has been determined as fact, that it is a disease? Science Jon, has in fact stated that the earth was flat and that it was also the center of the entire universe, at one time. People were killed who didnt follow this “science” belief and spoke out against it. This science you are refering to is nothing but a “best possible guess” formulated from the data they currently have. As more data is collected and researched it could very well change, to what I wouldnt dare even guess. More “pablum from the group think altar”? Criminal behavior is not the result of having some disease, mental illness or handicap I could understand. Saying its related to their experiences as a child or they didnt know how to cope with a major life change and turned to alcohol or drugs I could buy into as well. I agree that we are becoming a society of “pharmacuetical junkies”, but I think its because its easier to just take a pill and feel better rather than really address the true problem head on. Most people dont want to face their problems let alone acknowledge they have one. I also concede that yes, on the most basic meaning of the word, yes I do have social encounters with inmates. I used the term in its generaly understood use that I do NOT socialize with them. I supervise them, direct them, control them and yes, at times I help them with problems when they come to me looking for help. I consider this a professional encounter, not one of a social nature and in my position as an officer this is a real correctional practice but we also know to temper the cold professional with human understanding and compassion, when its called for. Jon, I respect your opinions, and I will look into the research you say exists.

Crakin…your experience with addiction is unique, as is mine…I also did not seek out AA or other counseling…In the words of Samuel L. Jackson (as Jules in "Pulp Fiction), "I had what alcoholics call, ’ a moment of clarity.’ " But you ask ME to stop!?!?!…I suggest you turn your megaphone in the direction of MEDICAL SCIENCE…argue with them…Addiction affects everyone differently…if you CHOOSE to view as a ONE SIZE fits ALL issue, then fine…do so AGAINST ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE…You are an addict that is still in denial of the FACTS!!! You are clean, but you are not sober…

You are simply engaging in SEMANTICS in deciding you have NO SOCIAL ENCOUNTERS with offenders, again, do so AGAINST REALITY or real correctional practice…

As far as LEGAL prostitution is concerned…I CONCEDE the points you make (EVEN THOUGH I NEVER STATED IT WAS LEGAL IN THE ENTIRE STATE)…NOW WHY NOT ENGAGE ON THE PULP OF THE POST rather than the BARK….Look at the evidence of those places where it is LEGALIZED and answer the questions posed in my post…What are the crimes committed in association with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada? Identify the CRIMINAL ELEMENT associated with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada?

Jon, while I do agree that Marijuana might be a legitimate substance for consideration to legalize, it was presented to the people of California on the ballot and was in fact, voted down. So, the majority did say no, not the politicians or the police, all though they were allowed to vote as well. As for drug and alcohol addiction being a disease like cancer, please, stop it. Calling addiction a disease is a cop out to what it really is, a poor personal choice that got out of control. I was an alcoholic at 21 years of age, started drinking when I was 15, poor choice on my part, no one elses. I woke up one morning in a puddle of my own vomit and realized that I could have killed myself and I was NOT going to go out that way. End of drinking, not another drop for 12 years. Now I can enjoy a beer and do so about once every 2 or 3 weeks. I had no disease, I had a control problem. Alcohol and drug addiction are results of poor personal choices, Cancer is not, in most cases. In case your wondering, I did not seek out AA or any other counseling group, I made the decision to quit and that was all I needed. Same with smoking, which I quit as well because I decided that I didnt want to smoke any more. No one else was going to make me quit, and man did my wife try lol. Also, as for our business being social and political, YES, it is very political, but I do not have a social encounter with inmates, that is not why I am employed. I do not consider inmates to be in my peer group. And if you check, I believe you will find that prostitution is NOT legal in Nevada, it is not legal inside the city limits of Las Vegas either. It is “legal” only in parts of that county.

Also, the very nature of our entire business is political…a HIGHLY social and political business…

Mick, I am not so quick to identify the majority as being against legalization…I am not a tin foil hat type, but I do not believe those in power are so quick to respond to popular opinion as you postulate. I am also of the opinion a vast majority of the populace is fed “pablum at the altar of the group think palace.”

Regardless, I believe, at least in this country (USA), we are under totalitarian rule (within the guise of a democracy). NEITHER a democracy or totalitarian rule was what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote the Declaration or the Constitution…we have been hijacked and HOODWINKED!

Mick also brought up a very key, almost innocuous term, in his post…“THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT.” And he used it when referencing prositution…“Even in countries where prostitution is tolerated…”

This is exactly WHY we need to eliminate PROHIBITION…let us look at the crimes associated WITH PROSTITUTION in the one place where it is LEGAL in the US…NEVADA…What are the crimes committed in association with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada? Identify the CRIMINAL ELEMENT associated with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada?

ANSWER = CLOSER TO ZERO than any other place where it is ILLEGAL

Jon as you said these Laws can be changed by a stroke of a pen. But as we both know the public at present are not in favour of changing these laws. The simple question is this, Do the majority of the People want Legalized Drugs and Prostitution? Answer = No. So therefore the whole point of this discussion is moot. As Rational Law was told from the beginning this is the wrong forum to post in. If he wanted to express his views he should have picked a political forum.

Oh, and the idea these “victimless crimes,” breed hate toward cops…I do not think I follow that line of thinking at all…I believe a vast majority of people who receive sound treatment are capable of eliminating feelings of hate…but to say that prostitution and drug use “breed hate,” is a little bit of a stretch…

Thank you to Mick and COGrim for your responses. I wholeheartedly agree there is no such thing as “victimless,” crime…As a matter of fact, every action we perform has a “victim,” in terms of consequence, even if it is limited to only ourselves…

Prostitution, drugs, gambling, and other vices, humankind engage in…

We WOULD eliminate a tremendous amount of victimization by a simple stroke of the pen, decriminalizing these acts…

Do NOT fool yourself into thinking the following: “Use and practice will SOAR if we decriminalize these acts.” “Making these acts criminal DETERS the frequency of occurence.”

I want to make very clear that acts associated with these vices (such as stealing, driving under the influence, etc.) would REMAIN punishable and I for one, would like to see the punishment INCREASE in severity…Lots of studies demonstrate that HARD TIME is very effective in deterrnece to CRIME. And these are CRIMES…

But if we decriminalize or legalize the use of marijuana or other drugs or legalize prostitution, then we EFFECTIVELY eliminate the VIOLENCE and DEATHS currently associated with their TRADE… AND LOWER CRIME!!!

LEGALIZED prostitution (Some people call this MARRIAGE…haha) eliminates the need for a violent pimp…LEGALIZED drugs SAVES money, COLLECTS TAX REVENUE, and spares people the indignity of being labeled a CONVICTED FELON…

People with addiction have a DISEASE…We do not LOCK PEOPLE UP who have a CANCER…WE TREAT THEM!!!

The problem is this…A majority of SOCIETY is in DENIAL ADDICTION is a DISEASE…Even though WE HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF, we still want to think of addiction as a MIND OVER MATTER issue…“They made the choice to use,” or “They are in control,” or “They should have thought about it before they did it.” What about those who report THEY DID THINK ABOUT IT AND STILL USED?

Does anyone here HONESTLY think that people in their RIGHT MIND would want OR NEED to use drugs and RISK the current consequence?

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT…Hence, I believe these people are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND…Two things leading to the WRONG MIND…1) MENTAL ILLNESS and 2) ADDICTION.

BOTH OF THEM ARE DISEASES the same as CANCER… AND BOTH can be TREATED!!!

“Mick, as of right now it is not WRONG to lock someone up for using drugs…I am saying that law needs to be questioned…that is all I am saying…and not only am I saying it, but a lot of policy and lawmakers are now looking at the sensibility of the laws…”

Now THAT is how you debate a point. There are those here erroneously calling themselves “rational” who could learn a thing or two from Jon.

Jon, what some people don’t know is, there is a big difference between debating or having a conversation and being an outright jerkhole TELLING you what your opinion should be or what you should believe. The original poster is a condescending narcissist who doles out his beliefs and opinions and attacks those who differ. Hell, he even attacked me for PARTIALLY agreeing and conceding a point. TOTAL blind agreement is the only thing he is interested in hearing. Hence the namecalling and the reason the OP is a non-player in this conversation.

You have articulated some very valid points. There is a lot that should be done to retool the laws concerning drug use. Marijuana in particilar is something that should be legalized in SOME ways such as medicinal use. I’m very open to that. What I am NOT open to is the outright legalization of everything- heroin, crack, PCP, meth- and just let the chips fall where they may in regards to the public acting responsibly. Granted, a stoner who simply smokes a joint at home and doesn’t bother anyone until he’s sober is a far cry from a junkie out in public who is too high to know what he’s doing and kills someone. I’m not that concerned about him myself- but through his using, he’s still feeding a commerce and a criminal element that preys on people in a very malignant way.

For that reason I don’t buy the lie that these are VICTIMLESS crimes. That is why there are laws against marijuana, right or wrong and I’m not going to lose a bit of sleep or spend one second lamenting the fact that the poor stoner gets locked up. If something is against the law and you consent and choose to do it anyway, you are consenting and choosing to be criminalized and locked up. It’s pretty simple, really. And don’t give me that “breeds hate towards cops” bullcrap. EVERY law that is enforced breeds hate towards cops. Do a poll of criminals and almost every one will say they hate cops. They hate cops because they got arrested doing something illegal. Do we legalize rape and murder so rapists and murderers like cops more?

Mick put it very nicely when he said, “We in Law Enforcement do not make the Law. We Enforce it. Politicians make the Laws and the Judiciary interpret them. It is not our job to pick and choose which Laws we are going to enforce because we like this law and don’t like that one.” Bottom line is, I will do MY part to enforce the law. I will NOT undermine my fellow CO’s, my brethren officers on the street or my department by openly criticizing the laws and the incarceration of lawbreakers. I suggest to anyone who has a problem with their job in this respect to get out and stop endangering your partners.

Jon I am not disagreeing with you that some hard core drugs are prescribed the prime example Morphine. But the key word is PRESCRIBED. And is done so by a qualified and licensed medical Doctor. But as I have said early in this discussion and will repeat here again for you is We in Law Enforcement do not make the Law. We Enforce it. Politicians make the Laws and the Judiciary interpret them. It is not our job to pick and choose which Laws we are going to enforce because we like this law and don’t like that one.
Now lets go back to the Original post in this discussion. Victimless Crimes!!. This is just one quote from said post “Victimless crimes such as prostitution”. He might want to tell the millions of women around the world that are trafficked into prostitution each year that they are not victims. Even in countries where prostitution is tolerated criminal elements control large sections of the sex industry. And as for the Victimless Crimes statement what utter nonsense. How many white collar criminals have declared in their defence that their crimes were “Victimless”. Do we ignore these crimes too? Where do we draw the line?

AMPHETAMINES (SPEED) are PRESCRIBED and MANDATORY to/for our FIGHTER pilots in the military…Our ground troops were given METHAMPHETAMINE in WWII in order to combat the SS troops of Nazi Germany…Students are PRESCRIBED HIGH DOSES of SPEED in order to counter the affects of ADHD…College students take them WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION and HORDE them in order to make the grade…Musicians in an orchestra take BETA BLOCKERS to maintain performance…

DRUGS DO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE in certain instances…the underlying philosophy of the WAR ON DRUGS is to CRIMINALIZE AND CASTIGATE A SELECT FEW who use drugs (i.e., Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, your neighbor) in order to cope with the issues of day-to-day life, becasue they have not had the benefit of EDUCATION and TRAINING in order to deal with the issues in a more positive fashion…This philosophy is UNFAIR and WITHOUT COMPASSION…the LAW is MEANT TO BE COMPASSIONATE and dictate a BETTER WAY OF LIVING, not to convey the message of DO NOT…man has never listened to a DO NOT in his life…

And Mick, while I believe that “fundamentally,” drug use is a CHOICE, there is still a lot of medical research being done into the core aspects of addiction and its physical nature…Not everyone is made of the same mix of “chemicals”…there are imbalances and other such stuff…I question the sensibility, the saneness, and the compassion, of those supporting prohibition laws and the war on drugs…

There is a war, no doubt, but it is a war taking place in the highest place available on Earth, and that is in the mind of mankind…

I do not advocate people commence USING drugs or alcohol or pick up smoking…and there is no research indicating people would do so if these drugs were decriminalized…For instance, look at the issue of tobacco…Tobacco was never banned as a drug…yet, the campaign against its use has been very effective and its use has declined over the last fifty-sixty years….

Whether one likes to admit it or otherwise shrink from the issue, this country was built upon the BACK of the tobacco and sugar cane plant (i.e., smoking and rum). We have been peddling this stuff for years…same with methamphetamine and other performance enhancers…We are fighting a war, but it is not because we want to come to anyone in the need of assistance or against Communism or Fascism…it is because some big drug dealers and peddlers has PAID the government to fight the war for THEM…more innocent lives are being LOST or turned into “pharmaceutical junkies,” than has ever been turned into a “crack fiend,” or “pothead.”