Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

muskrat, no one is questioning whether marijuana or any other drug has deleterious affects on any individual…of course it does…I do not advocate people to use drugs…

The entire issue of the effects examined within those studies (difficulty concentrating, lower academic performance, social anxiety, etc.) are presented…the MOST PRIMARY SALIENT FACTOR that is currently ABSENT in presenting the case for eliminating prohibition CANNOT be presented however…you do know what that factor is, RIGHT? Of course you do!!!

That is RIGHT!!! No one CAN DO a study that examines the differences between a group of people who use marijuana FREELY, without FEAR of being caught and imprisoned, and those who use in a more restrictive society…I would THEORIZE that many of the issues presented AS CONS to marijuana use WOULD DISAPPEAR if this was so…

Where did I say anything about eliminating security in my answer regarding immigration? Keep on checking and making sure things are secure by all means. You could still do this with a totally open (i.e., all persons wishing to conduct any form of legitimate work are WELCOME) border.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Crakin, another point you brought up was how the insurance companies are more likely to pay if they view substance abuse as a physical problem rather than a mental problem…

This is very salient…ONE, the entire issue and subject of MENTAL ILLNESS is directly related to INCARCERATION…A man will look at another MAN and determine…“HE can walk, he can talk, he has two good arms and legs…THEREFORE he is fine and HAS NO ILLNESS!” We refuse to accept it AS ILLNESS!!! AND CHRONIC!!! PERSISTENT!!! TWO…We do not pay for the treatment of mental illness ANYMORE either…WE INCARCERATE!!!

As a matter of fact Crakin, yes… I do advocate the elimination of immigration laws…I believe it is evident they do not work…I believe a man should be allowed to conduct his legitimate business ANYWHERE in the world…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Well, the last place I would expect to see a spammer would be a forum on correctional policy/direction…guess it shows anything is possible…

Actually, the use of the tobacco black market demonstrates two very important points…one, SUBSTANTIALLY prohibiting the legal purchase of tobacco through the use of exorbitant taxes and its subsequent unintended affect of establishing a CHEAPER black market…and two, what penalty would you propose on the smoker or consumer of the illgotten tobacco?

A pack of cigarettes costs all of 15 cents to manufacture and get to market…yet Mick tells me the GOVERNMENT in Ireland adds $12.85 cents in TAXES to each pack…and you want to call the drug user the criminal!?!?!?

Examine this issue in this light. First, people have civil liberties…These liberties remain if they do not cross over the boundary and infringe on my civil liberty. Should not the goal of any society be to INCREASE and FOSTER civil liberty? Should not another goal of any societybe to HELP people reduce or eliminate their dependency on both illicit and licit substances.

How does prohibition or substantially prohibiting (through the use of exorbitant taxation) the use of drugs/alcohol accomplish either goal? That is the question…I submit the answer is simply…IT DOES NOT help to accomplish either goal!!!

It does however make for a more violent and crime-ridden society thereby increasing the dependence on drugs and alcohol in order to cope with the madness…

Yes, Virginia…the government is well aware of ALL of this and is complicit with its perpetration on the public…They will collect their share…either through the taxes at the register or the kicking up of the envelopes from Vito and Guido on the street corner…

As professionals, it is our responsibility to QUESTION the ethical and moral basis for ALL ASPECTS of our existence…and how to treat people as ENDS TO THEMSELVES and not pawns for our pleasure…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Mick, there is no question there would continue to be an underground market of sale in order to avoid the taxes levied on any legal drug. These people are criminals and need to be dealt with appropriately. When I speak about lifting the term CRIMINAL, I am talking about the user; however, anyone who circumvents taxes is a CRIMINAL. LOCK THEM UP!!! Of course, there will always be what you propose, but a vast majority of the people who use tobacco, alcohol, or other legal drugs, obtain these drugs LEGALLY, through the appropriate channels. Alcohol is still sold in many pharmacies, as is tobacco…Marijuana could be treated the exact same way…

Crakin, you proposed the same sentence again, being: “How about this concept, instead of lifting the prohibition in order to remove the term CRIMINAL from people who use drugs, they stop using illegal drugs and remove the term criminal from themselves.” I do not understand what is so hard to grasp here…

PROHIBITION IS DEMONSTRABLY PROVEN TO HAVE FAILED…We went through a significant period in our country where we dealt with ALCOHOL the same way…what happened!?!?!? A DRASTIC INCREASE IN CRIME!!! PEOPLE, MANY OF THEM INNOCENT, were killed over the NOW ILLEGALIZED trade and sale of ALCOHOL!!!

The point is this…PEOPLE WANT THEIR DRUGS, whether it is tobacco, marijuana, alcohol, heroin, opium, cocaine, etc…THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET IT, UPT TO AND INCLUDING MURDER…Mass grave in Texas found….why is there? DIRECTLY associated with the ILLEGAL MARIJUANA trafficking…

You brought up tobacco Mick…tell me…any MASS GRAVES directly associated with the illegal sale of tobacco?

Now, if either of you can provide any evidence that PROHIBITION has worked, I will of course of cease my discussion and utilize this new evidence in the formation of a new education program for the people I serve.

As far as defining addiction…

The American Society of Addiction Medicine has this definition for Addiction:

Addiction is a primary, chronic DISEASE (emphasis mine) of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in the individual pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors. The addiction is characterized by impairment in behavioral control, craving, inability to consistently abstain, and diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships. Like other chronic DISEASES (emphasis mine), addiction can involve cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is PROGRESSIVE and can result in disability or premature death.

As with any other DISEASE, treatment takes many forms…up to and including or shared experience Crakin… (i.e., a moment of clarity)…however, it must be stated this is part of a CYCLE…and you must remain aware of this…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Ok…let me look at your response…

If one of the working girls gets caught shorting the house…Well, that would be a criminal act in and of itself…just like a cashier stealing from the till at the convenience store…That is crime, period…

You remain glued to the concept that organized crime somehow remains attached to operations in Vegas…in fact, many of the casinoes in Vegas are owned by Wall Street brokers and traders…shares are split if not publically traded on the market…Of course, most people view these types as bigger crooks than the mob, but gambling is legal…and since prostitution is legal also, then the term CRIMINAL ceases to exist in the performance of the activity…

If you notice my post, I do say “fundamentally,” in regard to choice; HOWEVER, that does not eliminate the core disease…Addiction is multifaceted disease, affecting all areas of the human…When parents tell children that smoking stunts their growth, they are not necessarily referring to the physical growth…Smoking stunts growth in areas of emotion, spirit, society, economy, etc…The same as cancer or any other disease…Science has addressed addiction, the same as cancer, on many fronts…go to a cancer clinic and ask them if all they offer is chemo…Check it out, then go to an addictions recovery clinic and tell me what the difference is…I submit you will find not much…

Man is always in search of reasons…it is the process that DRIVES further knowledge…not an attempt to make an excuse…or to eliminate punishment…Fo you to say that science “ain’t workin,”…well, put away your teflon pans and ceramic tiles…

Yes, the election results of California, as reported, were against legalization of marijuana…The whole point of this thread is to view the underlying philosophy of why people in this world continue to believe prohibition is the answer…Prohibition does not cause further abuse…I never stated or otherwise intimated that in any of my posts…Neither is there any evidence that legalizing drug use will cause abuse or use of any drug to increase…What eliminating Prohibition would do is TAKE AWAY the term CRIMINAL from a person who uses drugs…as well it should…

Science has never stated the world was flat or the center of the universe…the Catholic Church did…and you are right…it KILLED people who disagreed or otherwise thought to speak or think differently (Galileo, Copernicus, et. al.) Much like modern society is seeking to do with the madness of Prohibition…

TOO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE NAME OF A FAILED DRUG WAR ON DRUGS!!! Let us speak united as a people…We do not advocate drug use, but let us change things in order to stop the needless killing…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Crakin…your experience with addiction is unique, as is mine…I also did not seek out AA or other counseling…In the words of Samuel L. Jackson (as Jules in "Pulp Fiction), "I had what alcoholics call, ’ a moment of clarity.’ " But you ask ME to stop!?!?!…I suggest you turn your megaphone in the direction of MEDICAL SCIENCE…argue with them…Addiction affects everyone differently…if you CHOOSE to view as a ONE SIZE fits ALL issue, then fine…do so AGAINST ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE…You are an addict that is still in denial of the FACTS!!! You are clean, but you are not sober…

You are simply engaging in SEMANTICS in deciding you have NO SOCIAL ENCOUNTERS with offenders, again, do so AGAINST REALITY or real correctional practice…

As far as LEGAL prostitution is concerned…I CONCEDE the points you make (EVEN THOUGH I NEVER STATED IT WAS LEGAL IN THE ENTIRE STATE)…NOW WHY NOT ENGAGE ON THE PULP OF THE POST rather than the BARK….Look at the evidence of those places where it is LEGALIZED and answer the questions posed in my post…What are the crimes committed in association with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada? Identify the CRIMINAL ELEMENT associated with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada?

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Also, the very nature of our entire business is political…a HIGHLY social and political business…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Mick, I am not so quick to identify the majority as being against legalization…I am not a tin foil hat type, but I do not believe those in power are so quick to respond to popular opinion as you postulate. I am also of the opinion a vast majority of the populace is fed “pablum at the altar of the group think palace.”

Regardless, I believe, at least in this country (USA), we are under totalitarian rule (within the guise of a democracy). NEITHER a democracy or totalitarian rule was what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote the Declaration or the Constitution…we have been hijacked and HOODWINKED!

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Mick also brought up a very key, almost innocuous term, in his post…“THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT.” And he used it when referencing prositution…“Even in countries where prostitution is tolerated…”

This is exactly WHY we need to eliminate PROHIBITION…let us look at the crimes associated WITH PROSTITUTION in the one place where it is LEGAL in the US…NEVADA…What are the crimes committed in association with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada? Identify the CRIMINAL ELEMENT associated with LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION in the state of Nevada?

ANSWER = CLOSER TO ZERO than any other place where it is ILLEGAL

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Oh, and the idea these “victimless crimes,” breed hate toward cops…I do not think I follow that line of thinking at all…I believe a vast majority of people who receive sound treatment are capable of eliminating feelings of hate…but to say that prostitution and drug use “breed hate,” is a little bit of a stretch…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Thank you to Mick and COGrim for your responses. I wholeheartedly agree there is no such thing as “victimless,” crime…As a matter of fact, every action we perform has a “victim,” in terms of consequence, even if it is limited to only ourselves…

Prostitution, drugs, gambling, and other vices, humankind engage in…

We WOULD eliminate a tremendous amount of victimization by a simple stroke of the pen, decriminalizing these acts…

Do NOT fool yourself into thinking the following: “Use and practice will SOAR if we decriminalize these acts.” “Making these acts criminal DETERS the frequency of occurence.”

I want to make very clear that acts associated with these vices (such as stealing, driving under the influence, etc.) would REMAIN punishable and I for one, would like to see the punishment INCREASE in severity…Lots of studies demonstrate that HARD TIME is very effective in deterrnece to CRIME. And these are CRIMES…

But if we decriminalize or legalize the use of marijuana or other drugs or legalize prostitution, then we EFFECTIVELY eliminate the VIOLENCE and DEATHS currently associated with their TRADE… AND LOWER CRIME!!!

LEGALIZED prostitution (Some people call this MARRIAGE…haha) eliminates the need for a violent pimp…LEGALIZED drugs SAVES money, COLLECTS TAX REVENUE, and spares people the indignity of being labeled a CONVICTED FELON…

People with addiction have a DISEASE…We do not LOCK PEOPLE UP who have a CANCER…WE TREAT THEM!!!

The problem is this…A majority of SOCIETY is in DENIAL ADDICTION is a DISEASE…Even though WE HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF, we still want to think of addiction as a MIND OVER MATTER issue…“They made the choice to use,” or “They are in control,” or “They should have thought about it before they did it.” What about those who report THEY DID THINK ABOUT IT AND STILL USED?

Does anyone here HONESTLY think that people in their RIGHT MIND would want OR NEED to use drugs and RISK the current consequence?

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT…Hence, I believe these people are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND…Two things leading to the WRONG MIND…1) MENTAL ILLNESS and 2) ADDICTION.

BOTH OF THEM ARE DISEASES the same as CANCER… AND BOTH can be TREATED!!!

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

AMPHETAMINES (SPEED) are PRESCRIBED and MANDATORY to/for our FIGHTER pilots in the military…Our ground troops were given METHAMPHETAMINE in WWII in order to combat the SS troops of Nazi Germany…Students are PRESCRIBED HIGH DOSES of SPEED in order to counter the affects of ADHD…College students take them WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION and HORDE them in order to make the grade…Musicians in an orchestra take BETA BLOCKERS to maintain performance…

DRUGS DO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE in certain instances…the underlying philosophy of the WAR ON DRUGS is to CRIMINALIZE AND CASTIGATE A SELECT FEW who use drugs (i.e., Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, your neighbor) in order to cope with the issues of day-to-day life, becasue they have not had the benefit of EDUCATION and TRAINING in order to deal with the issues in a more positive fashion…This philosophy is UNFAIR and WITHOUT COMPASSION…the LAW is MEANT TO BE COMPASSIONATE and dictate a BETTER WAY OF LIVING, not to convey the message of DO NOT…man has never listened to a DO NOT in his life…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

And Mick, while I believe that “fundamentally,” drug use is a CHOICE, there is still a lot of medical research being done into the core aspects of addiction and its physical nature…Not everyone is made of the same mix of “chemicals”…there are imbalances and other such stuff…I question the sensibility, the saneness, and the compassion, of those supporting prohibition laws and the war on drugs…

There is a war, no doubt, but it is a war taking place in the highest place available on Earth, and that is in the mind of mankind…

I do not advocate people commence USING drugs or alcohol or pick up smoking…and there is no research indicating people would do so if these drugs were decriminalized…For instance, look at the issue of tobacco…Tobacco was never banned as a drug…yet, the campaign against its use has been very effective and its use has declined over the last fifty-sixty years….

Whether one likes to admit it or otherwise shrink from the issue, this country was built upon the BACK of the tobacco and sugar cane plant (i.e., smoking and rum). We have been peddling this stuff for years…same with methamphetamine and other performance enhancers…We are fighting a war, but it is not because we want to come to anyone in the need of assistance or against Communism or Fascism…it is because some big drug dealers and peddlers has PAID the government to fight the war for THEM…more innocent lives are being LOST or turned into “pharmaceutical junkies,” than has ever been turned into a “crack fiend,” or “pothead.”

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Mick, as of right now it is not WRONG to lock someone up for using drugs…I am saying that law needs to be questioned…that is all I am saying…and not only am I saying it, but a lot of policy and lawmakers are now looking at the sensibility of the laws…

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43248071/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

The most pressing point is this…What about the damage caused to person by incarcerating them for using a drug…I am not talking about a drunk driver…I am talking about using a drug…nothing else…

We label them a convicted felon…making it more difficult for them to gain a job and live a life free from future incarceration…we set them on a spiral, typically down a drain, further into the rabbit hole…

Mankind has been looking for a way to alter his mind and mood since we have been on this Earth…to think we are going to address this FACT effectively through the illegalization of mind and mood altering substances…well, I need someone to engage me in a non-name calling debate on that…

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Some background: 25 years of experience within the correctional system…officer, sergeant, counselor, casework manager, substance abuse counselor.

Prohibition does not work. Any sober (please look up the definition) person KNOWS that prohibition does not work. Any person performing research into the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act cannot reasonably come to any other conclusion. The only persons who were in support of the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act were persons associated with organized crime. This includes the Kennedys, the Prescotts (read Bush), and other associated politically powerful families, who making their fortunes from maintaining control over the supply.

I totally agree with the concept that drug and alcohol abuse cause a TREMENDOUS amount of damage to families, homes, communities, society, and ultimately, the WORLD at large…we have fought, and continue to this day, to fight WIDESPREAD wars over the control and trade routes over illicit drugs in places where they are ILLEGAL.

PEOPLE WHO FAIL TO LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT!!!

Now, to those detractors who have resorted to name calling, I suggest you take a long look at why you are in the business you are in…I have seen comments where you indicate the only responsibility you have is to ENFORCE the law. If you believe you have no fundamental responsibility to question the ethical or moral basis of a law, or have not even given it a thought, then you are admitting to being a sheep.
For those of you ground in the fundamental and literal interpretation of the Bible, then I guess this is okay…after all, followers are characterized as “lambs to slaughter.”

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

I was reading this thread. Many who post here have a desire to bring about meaningful change in the country through their work. Tell me how resorting to pre-pubescent name calling fits in with this desire?

Topic: Letter of The Law / # chances before drug offenders go to prison instead of rehab

Prohibition does not work. Addiction is a disease of the brain. Do we lock up cancer patients? Right now, the latest figures demonstrate the costs to American Society is over half a trillion dollars per year due to issues of addiction. A significant portion of this is the costs related to incarcerating addicts.

Mankind has been finding ways to alter his moods and feelings since the dawn of recorded history. Only in the last 100 years or so have we sought in various societies to lock up people who use, typically at the behest of someone with: a) a lot of money to influence the legislators to write these “Scarlet Letter,” draconian laws; b) a “holier than thou,” and an “ignore rational authority,” attitude, resulting in viewing addiction as a “character,” or “moral,” defect, rather than the scientific conclusion it is a disease; or, worse c) a combination of both…

Issues of addiction require treatment, not imprisonment…those persons calling for imprisonment are irrational and need to wake up…

Topic: Letter of The Law / Personal Phone calls?

co350 1 post—-“And to jon I can give you a clear picture of how to manage the situation. We as officers should be given the same rights as any other employee that can make a outside call at will. Management trust us to watch convicted felons 8-16 hours at a time yet you dont trust us to place phone calls. Grow up.”
-———

The “same rights…” You must think that having the opportunity to make an outside call while you are on work is a right…Further, based on your tone and tenor, you must think this is some really big deal and that all the administration does at your facility is sit on their collective butts all day at work making outside phone calls just because they can…!?!?!?

Topic: Letter of The Law / Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?

Like I said, the phrasing of the question has led to these points/counterpoints…

“Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?” is the question…

I submit the question mark should be at the end of the word magazines…in which case, the answer is unequivocally yes…if it remains where it is, then I submit, the answer is what it is…no incentive…just false compliance…

Topic: Economy & Stimulus / Stimulus Package Response

Just a note…If you are not in a position of custody within a corrections agency, I recommend that you immediately do so…there will be no more room for program staff in a correctional facility…The current group of corrections administrators are of the same mindset as that of the “elected” government officials…“Put em behind bars until their time is up…” No programs for these guys…

So get into uniform and be prepared to deal with a bunch of guys who have nothing to do or nothing to look forward to except how to screw with you when you come on duty… So much for stimulus…

Topic: Letter of The Law / Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?

Yes.

Topic: Letter of The Law / Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?

For every “Percy Whetmore,” there is a “Paul,” and the majority of us in between…

Topic: Letter of The Law / Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?

By the way, I believe anyone who works in a prison is involved in a very HONORABLE PROFESSION…rhetorically asking, “How do you demonstrate HONORABLE behavior?”

Topic: Letter of The Law / Can we deny inmates access to newspapers, magazines as an incentive for better behavior?

The point I was making Mudflap is this…the concept of prison “volunteerism,” is born of this behavior demonstrated within the experiment…statements about the training we have in place and the entire philosophy we have in place are contradictory…

Here is the mental picture of many who work in prison:

Q: “What did he do?”
A: “He is in here for _.”
Reply: “LOCK HIM UP AND THROW AWAY THE KEY!”

This attitude is prevalent amongst employees in correctional institutions and is made evident in many forms; one of which is the idea that denying access to reading materials is somehow going to be an incentive for better behavior.

As I stated earlier, sustained freedom is a tremendous incentive for best behavior for those who have a like mindset of the majority…but it is quite obvious (or should be for an objective viewer) this precious incentive did not cut the mustard for those people who are incarcerated…A BIGGER APPLE THAN FREEDOM presented itself to their eye…

I work with offenders as a substance abuse counselor. I still have a strong sense of custodial issues, such as shakedowns and correct movement/counts and contraband. All of these things impact my job heavily, and despite any other label being placed on back, I still am of the primary belief that CUSTODY is the most important program offered in an institution…without safety and security needs being met, NO person is going to progress in attainment of higher level needs, a’la’ 9/11…

The bottom line is this…we should be doing everything possible to promote change in these people prior to them being released back into the communities…We are called CORRECTIONS PROFESSIONALS for a reason…what are we correcting?