While I do see merit in some points and the overall goal of this program, either I’m not fully understanding how this is expected to be sustainable or maybe I just don’t have all the facts. If the main focus is white collar crimes which we all know the majority of those focus around one thing and thats greed. Now we all know rehabilitation will never happen unless the offender in question wants it to happen. Thats just a fact of human nature. The numbers of white collar criminals who have any remorse for thier crimes is slim to none, they just feel bad for themselves that they got caught. While a select few of all types of the criminal class of people may want to do the right thing and spend money they legally earn to repent and repay their crimes, the majority will choose to stay on the path of personal gain by any means. Just like an alcoholic, habits will never change unless said person wants to change them. I do agree with giving a fair chance for those who make the choice to fix past mistakes but as always the end result is completely up to them. While people understand kindness, compassion and the need for safety, predators only understand force and personal gain. This is and always will be part of the laws of nature.

Noun1.decriminalisation – legislation that makes something legal that was formerly illegal (Thesaurus) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/decriminalisation) As long as we are using definitions here. The point I am making is as a classification officer one of my OJC questions to the arrested is about drug use. this is recorded in the classification instrument and collated. the incidence of drug use to the arrested for violent crime is above 80%. non-violent crime is still above 60%. I believe the current trend of “decriminalizing” what you describe as soft drugs will have the same effect in Colorado that it did in Amsterdam. Along with soft drugs (which I still believe are gateway drugs) will come the hard, very dangerous drugs and the chaos that comes with it. You can ignore the writing on the wall but it is happening already. I am seeing a marked increase of trafficking marijuana out of Colorado across our state to the Eastern states especially Chicago,IL. My very close friend in the TSA is seeing it in the mass transportation system(trains, planes,automobiles).

Just to be clear this thread is about Criminal Rehabilitation, NOT Substance Abuse Rehabilitation although there is a likelihood of underlying issues in Criminal Rehabilitation requiring Substance Abuse Rehabilitation.

That may well be the case Mick…I do not live there; however, it still only solidifies the point I make. Any stigma of criminalization or illegality related to a drug/alcohol only increases the level of violence and other criminal activity related to the pursuit and/or garnishment of the drug/alcohol.

R. Recovery – I agree this conversation by others went off track by only discussing the drug issue. The drug factor is a huge part of the puzzle in the rehabilitation process and it would be great if we could find a way to curtail the drug problem. Unfortunately we cannot eliminate the drugs for it will always be around whether it be legal or not. Back to the topic you were trying to discuss. Rehabilitation involves so much more than drugs as you pointed out. The cost of rehabilitation is very high. Depending on who is funding it and how successful it is at preventing recidivism is always going to be a debatable subject. I do agree if we can get the offenders to take responsibility and pay for their own rehabilitation that they should. I do know that there are quite a few offenders sitting in prison right now who have plenty of money. Unfortunately these same offenders are often still trying to buck the system. These particular offenders choose to go to prison instead of paying certain fines just to keep their money. I am baffled by what some of these people do and I will probably never understand this kind of mentality. In my experience, I do believe a combination of mental illness and the economy are the two biggest culprits to criminal behavior. If the mental illness is maintained properly by providing the right amount of medication and continuous observation by health professionals that some of these people will be doing okay in our society. The economy has always been an issue when it comes to crime. If the economy is bad, people are going to find a way to survive and/or keep what they still have regarding their personal belongings and their homes. Big issues like this usually lead to the substance abuse which in turn causes greater issues in their plight to live. This is why I made a point to mention the offenders paying for their rehabilitation. Even though there are many out there with money, most do not have the money to flip the entire bill for their needed treatment and programs. I understand that it should be all about the victims but when we are talking about “criminal rehabilitation”, it is all about the criminal. We need the criminal to change their behavior, not the victim. Should the victim, or what was done to the victim be part of the rehabilitation process? Absolutely!! Hopefully the rehabilitation process helps both the offender and the victim over come the negative effects it has had on their lives.

Eitel Status… GREAT points. Thank you for your incite. The only issue I have is that everyone is ONLY concerned with “DRUGS”. The Criminal Rehabilitation Program at Redemption Recovery is not just for DRUG crimes in fact it is the minority. A lot of the cases that come though are non-violent white collar crimes. (1) these individuals have the money to pay so that the tax payer does not foot the bill. (2) furthermore the main purpose of a white collar crime prosecution SHOULD be getting every dime back to the victims NOT making the taxpayer pay for these guys to go to Camps to pay tennis all day. The program offers society the chance to get these guys back to work so that the Federal Government can garnish their wages and pay back victims. The tax payer should not have to pay $50k to $100k a year for these guys. “put them back on the right path, get them working and help the victims”. Ultimately it should be all about the victims.

totallackey speaking form an Irish point of view many of the criminals I have dealt with that have either lived in the Netherlands or have links there have said that the Dutch view on both Cannabis and MDMA was a factor for them plus having access to other players in the narcotics market. As for the port of Rotterdam being a factor yes it is but so could the ports of Le Havre (France), Antwerp (Belgium) and Hamburg (Germany) all have the same international shipping routes but don’t have the same level of foreign drug dealers resident in their countries as does the Netherlands.

Mick, I am sure the Netherlands has always been one of the major points of distribution for any and all goods in demand, given it is home to one of, if not the largest, shipping ports in the entire world. Decriminalizing is a non-factor in the dynamic.

totallacky. While you are quite correct in saying that cannabis has not been legalized in the Netherlands what decriminalization has done is attract major drug dealers from across Europe to base themselves there. Simple perceived legality of drugs has lead the Netherlands to become the major hub for illegal drug distribution in Europe.

Squeeze writes: “To say that if we just legalize the drugs is absurd and proven in the Amsterdam experince (sic) that legalization simply does not reduce crime. As in Amsterdam after legalization the violent crime rate rose not declined.”

Well, all this would be fine and good if in fact drugs have been legalized in Amsterdam. In fact, they have not…
http://www.amsterdam.info/coffee-shop-news/
Just because something has been decriminalized, does not mean its is legal.
It is absurd to continue to think that making something illegal prevents people from doing it…I have clear, concrete, objective proof for the statements I write…not conjecture or something pulled out my hat like a rabbit at a magic show…

While programs such as these do some good to reduce recidivism, the programs are wholy dependent on the subject to accept the therapy and change that part of their personality that needs to be modified. Some do, some are in it because they have to so they go through the motions and then some relapse. as anyone who has any experience with rehab almost everyone relapse to some degree. My experience and research has indicated that most people won’t make those dramatic changes unless there is a traumatic experience that literally “rewires from the inside” their personality. To say that if we just legalize the drugs is absurd and proven in the Amsterdam experince" that legalization simply does not reduce crime. As in Amsterdam after legalization the violent crime rate rose not declined. These programs are helpful to a limited extent and are to be commended for what they do but they are not the answer to a problem that cannot be solved. As R.Recovery has a point, I contend that the devil/evil whatever you want to call it will always exist as it always has. God ultimately created us with free-will, but some want yours and my free-will too. We are the sheepdogs of the world protecting the sheep who we obviously have a symbionic relationship with. We protect them from the wolf, the wolf will always be at the perimeter, waiting to make the kill. We the sheepdogs are the only protection the sheep have. The sheep make the world go round and provide for us. It is difficult to tame the wolf, they can only be what they are, wolves, some by choice. Can the wolf change and become the sheep? NO! Can a particular wolf be tamed to live amongst the sheep? Possible, for we the sheepdogs decended from the wolf. But the wolf has to have it in them to be domesticated, as criminals have to become socialized. Untill that time the police catch them and we keep them penned up. that is the way I see it.

R.Recovery – I just looked at the website www.CriminalRehabilitaion.com and I am impressed with this program. I also liked the idea of putting more of the cost on the offender as opposed to the tax payer. The only issue I see with this is that most offenders do not have the money to go through this program. They are starting from scratch in making a change whether it be a law abiding citizen or a better criminal. Punishment as you mentioned has gone on for years with no sign of preventing recidivism. Something else needs to be done and I think this website you pointed out is on the right track by attempting to help people change their way of thinking to a more positive and productive one. In Minnesota we are going with a TPC (Transitions from Prison to Community) program with a thought process of using more positive reinforcement with the offenders. We need to “change the way we do business”. I am curious as to what roll you play in the criminal rehabilitation program. Are you a part of this program or do you only know about it from the website? If you are in it, I guess I am a little concerned about your interpersonal communication skills. Don’t get me wrong. You bring up some very good points but saying things like “If you took 60 seconds to look at the website and perform a small amount of due diligence before you made such an outrageous comment”, and “lol…..I can’t understand any of that rant at all” is not helping in what is a great discussion topic. I happen to think that Totallackey is making perfect sense. I feel the government definitely has their hands in the drugs coming in and out of our country, and they are also a big part of the problems on the streets. The programs at Criminal rehabilitation are the same programs going on at Hazelden. If you ask me, I would say those at Hazelden are just as much criminals as those in the Criminal Rehabilitation program. The only difference is those at Hazelden are not charged with a crime even though they committed one by taking illegal drugs for instance. Tax payers are still putting their money into these programs through grants and scholarships given both federally and by the state for these kind of programs. There are always loop holes into what, where, and how, the money goes and it has been proven many times that politicians and lawmakers do not make things happen unless there is “kickbacks” like totalackey mentioned.

I think you need to educate yourself on the subject a little. It’s the only private Criminal Rehabilitation program in the country. You kinda of got off subject. Talk a look and become more informed at www.CriminalRehabilitation.com

Sorry buddy but you just don’t make any sense.

How can one “laugh,” at something not understood? Please, R. Recovery, do not engage at this level.

lol…..I can’t understand any of that rant at all but happy you are voicing your opinion.

In addition, it is self-evident and objective FACT more violent and dangerous crime is being committed within ALL neighborhoods as a result of the illegalization of ANY drugs (just as it was during Prohibition), but more especially that of our black and minority communities. These drugs were made (and are being kept) illegal by crooks occupying the halls of justice and lawmaking who derive a fortune through kickbacks, kickups, and stocks, within the illegal drug trade, the pharmaceutical industry, the alcohol industry, and the arms industry. The CIA (run by Czar Bush the First) instituted the trade of crack and arms within the country, supplying both to the Crips/Bloods.

Sorry, correcting my post…R. Recovery wrote the words: “Secondly RJC is right. You can’t legalize substances like LSD, Meth, Crack, Cocaine. These substances lead to a very high degree of violent crimes when individuals are on them. It would be a huge danger to all communities.”

RCJ writes: “Totallackey, so what you are saying is that cocaine, meth, LSD, crack, heroine, and that’s just to name a few should be legal? I’m sorry but I’m not buying into that. When one of these addict nut jobs hurt someone close to you let me know your opinion then.”
Okay…I understand…How about when one of the alcoholics driving along a road hurts someone close to me…get the picture? Are you stomping for alcohol to become illegal?
To tell the truth, I am not very happy when anyone close to me gets hurt by anyone, drunk, stoned, or sober; however, I happen to realize that pain and suffering are inevitable, regardless of source. How is the prohibition against murder working out? Thousands of years old, issued by the Almighty, and yet????
RCJ writes: “Secondly RJC is right. You can’t legalize substances like LSD, Meth, Crack, Cocaine. These substances lead to a very high degree of violent crimes when individuals are on them. It would be a huge danger to all communities.”
I would challenge you to provide any objective study demonstrating a higher degree of violent crime is committed when the perp is under the influence of cocaine, meth, or LSD, as compared to being sober or under the influence of caffeine, marijuana, alcohol, etc…
All studies regarding any current illegal drug are, by their very nature, tainted by the illegality of the drug and therefore suspect in the results.

totallackey. I am not saying that at all. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Secondly RJC is right. You can’t legalize substances like LSD, Meth, Crack, Cocaine. These substances lead to a very high degree of violent crimes when individuals are on them. It would be a huge danger to all communities.

I would be okay with legalizing Marijuana and that’s it. There is no reason to put a police officer’s life at risk with Mexican cartel gangs for a PLANT that GOD put on this earth.

Totallackey, so what you are saying is that cocaine, meth, LSD, crack, heroine, and that’s just to name a few should be legal? I’m sorry but I’m not buying into that. When one of these addict nut jobs hurt someone close to you let me know your opinion then.

Basically both sides are admitting the crime is being committed in pursuit of the drug.

Now everyone just stop.

Those on the side of incarceration: What costs more…incarcerating or the drug? I think we all know the drug prison ends up costing more in terms of money, spirit, and soul…

If the person had the drugs, no crime to commit in order to get the drug…There is a prescribed dose for the crap they peddle on TV, with admitted side effects, up to and including death (ergo, no different than any illegal drug). So, there should be a prescribed dose for the stuff currently illegal. Decriminalize and stop prosecuting drug users.

R.Recovery……….I understand that it would be fantastic to get people off their addictions and since most crimes are drug related it would reduce recidivism and violent crimes. Are you talking about court ordered treatment or just getting users to go through your programs? I don’t see how an addict that robs and steals to pay for their addiction could pay for your services without some kind of stipend from grants or funds through the taxpaying public.

I don’t think that is really the case, but we have theft for Meth, murders, robberys, muggings all for money to buy drugs or money owed for drugs. Also we have crimes comitted as a result of people high on drugs. People need to be held accountable for their actions and I don’t believe that being on drugs is an excuse for these crimes.

RJC… who is asking you to take these people home with you?