Not necessarily “just a matter of time,” Smaj. I agree that if the s*it truly hits the fan someone with your experience will simply react, but for the average run of the mill altercation they won’t be in “panic mode” and will react accordingly.

With all the training that I’ve had over the years in the Army, and with the Department, it’s just a matter of time before something really happens. I know that the military training will take over as it’s been ingrained into me over a period of 24 years. The problem will be during the altercation if I know when to stop. Which, I’m positive I won’t until that Inmate ends up going to ICU. It’s just a matter of time.

You don’t know really,searching a cell,inmate movement,breaking am argument before it
turns into a fight.ect,ect.
Complacency can get you hurt,doing the job from day to day over a thousand times,and all of a
sudden number one thousand and one the shit hits the fan.Good physical fitness,training,and being
aware of my surroundings has help me so far.
A good friend of mind who recently join the police force was always involved on am almost weekly
basis in fights.Some of us,fortunate.well it’s being years.Luck or just being at the right place and
time.
I have am inmate tell me once that the best way to take me down was to catch me of guard and
take me down,put me on the floor.Wrote him up but it got me thinking,judo or ground fighting;martial
arts,but to be honest if I where to go down I will make am effort to take a few of them down with me.

“The pen in your hand,stabbed h…….Sure there are rules about the use of force but in my opinion
some of them where writing by some who had no idea of what it’s like.Example,”watch their eyes"
B.S…Doesn’t work.

In Ohio that’s a hole shot (seg placement). It would be wrote up as a threat to staff, some might even try to write it up as attemp to form a relationship?. but he would have been spray (oc) most likley, them taken away. The inmates here have the mentality of “given a inch, we take a mile” so we try to nip this type of behavior in the bud before it gets out of hand…well at least we try to.

I had an inmate tell me he was going to bend me over and f#$% me….I smiled, did not miss a beat and told him I was going to cut off his little fella with a jagged piece of glass…all with a smile of course…BTW…I work as a nurse in correctional health, not an officer, we cop it too but are so thick skinned…

Darn right, Mudflap.

“The force you use should not be greater than the attacker”?

That was a surprise to read. I’ve always been taught to use force one step above what the attacker is using… if he’s going to hit me with his fist I can use the pepper (I certainly don’t want to get into a fist fight if I’ve got something better). If he has a baseball bat I can use a firearm (again, I don’t want to get into a fight with baseball bats). If he has a firearm I want mine out first. If I’m 5’ 2" and 120 pounds I probably need more than my fists to restrain a guy who is 6’ 4" and 280 pounds. Maybe I’ve been in this business too long and simply respond as I’ve been taught, but it’s an error to use the same amount of force used against me to ward off an assault.

It’s pretty much the same way here Swartz. We can’t use “excessive force,” but we can use whatever force “necessary” to stop the aggressive action, which usually means meeting the attackers force or going one step above it to restrain, regain, and maintain control of the individual or situation. As far as being understaffed, I don’t remember a time when we weren’t short handed. We usually call CERT when we need a cell extraction, but the shift supervisor can make the call to pop the door in a true emergency.

In S.A you must use the minimum force necessary to ward off the attack.The force you use should not be greater than the attacker.This is a tricky issue when you are actually facing an attack and officials often end up in disciplinary hearings,suspension because of this issue.There are always a shortage of staff which is a risk in itself but one has to perform your duties anyway but when trouble arise you must have the answers even though management is fully aware and policy states that no cell may be opened if there is a shortage of staff on the Unit.

One thing I was taught was there is no hierarchy in the use of force continuum that has to be met before I can use greater lethality. I was taught to meet the attacker with force at least one step above his/hers. Example is if a guy comes at me with fists I’m coming at him with OC. The point is when the poopy hits the fan you won’t have time to think about the level of force you’re going to use. React and use whatever is necessary to stop the aggressive action. Smilie41 was right on when she said, “I would fight for my life and if I happen to kill that inmate then so be it.” If the only way to stop the guy is with deadly force then use it. It’s better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

I my opinion, i would fight for my life and if I had to disfigure him then so be it. These guys don’t care for you or even respect you..I would fight for my life and if I happen to kill that inmate then so be it. I have always promoised myself, i would fight and if I died then i know I did my best. If i got punched and become unconscious then so be it cause there is nothing you can really do then -just pray that I would never wake up cause I would be mad as hell with revenge on my mind and would not rest until justice is served by me….!!!
This is just my opinion -

Now the big question and the purpose of this training article, “When am I justified?” “At what point can I pull out all the stops and disfigure this individual?” “When can I press my fingers into his eyes?” “At what point can I pull off an ear?” Wow, heavy stuff isn’t it? However, the problem here is that these points in time are difficult to establish and fall into the grey shaded area. Not one author I know of wants to put himself out there and give this advice because of legal ramifications. The courts have failed to even put themselves out there in use of force accounts because of the fact that each situation is different and may appear different to each officer involved. That is why the courts have stated: The “Reasonableness” inquiry is an objective one.

Recent deaths of two juvenile correctional officers after inmate attack. William Hesson and Leonard Wall left be baffled. The thing that made me scratch my head was that after the attack no inmates were taken to the hospital for treatment of any injuries inflicted by the killed officer. Was the officer knocked unconscious or did they ever believe that the inmates were attempting to take their life? We can all recite the allowances for the use of deadly force, one being the defense of self or others. Therefore, I ask again, “When do you know you’re being killed?” What clicks on the light switch when you begin to take steps to kill your attacker?

As a police officer, I knew if an individual had a gun, a knife, or a baseball bat, those instruments could cause my death or serious physical harm to me so I could justifiably shoot and kill the individual. Now that I am inside a prison, where guns and extreme instruments should be unavailable to my attacker what are my deadly force indicators? If an inmate punches me in the face, can I choke him unconscious? Well that seems extreme but the UFC has shown us repeatedly the realization of the one punch knockout. If you are knocked unconscious, you have to think will the inmate stab or kill you? We hear the comment, “the totality of the Circumstances” But what does that actually mean? I bet you can’t define it.

When do you know? I want your opinions to put in the new training article.