Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Correctionator, there’s no point debating anthing with you, ur just trolling illogic.

Mick, beer is a drug. If If you are for prohibition and even comparing the victims of prohibition to pedophiles then you should be doing the same with beer/liquor right? When I speak against drug prohibition, that includes the prohibition of currently legal drugs too. It makes no sense to continue prohibition for ANY drug when in it is a counter-productive policy that only makes the problem worse. All I am saying here is that people should have the right to drink a beer, smoke a bowl, or whatever, it’s not the business of the state or us law enforcement. People damage themselves with all sorts of junk foods and poisons, there’s no point to pick and choose the poison to imprison people for.

As far as “democracy” goes. Perhaps your not in America, but I think it is the best example to use since it started the war on drugs. America was intended to be a republic where individual civil liberties cannot be voted away. So no you can’t vote away free speech, right to lawfully bear arms, right to privacy, ect. The majority can’t take rights from a minority unless that minority was trying to do the same with the majority.

And I question your polling as well. Most people are against the war on drugs. It’s just hard for the people to vote away prohibition because the disproportionate representation among politicians, especially in NAFTA countries. It’s not even put on the table to discuss to begin with usually, although this has been changing recently.

I think it’s our job to lock up the murderers, rapists, robbers, fraudsters, ect. not the person who is not harming someone or using a substance like alcohol, pot, caffeine, shrooms, or whatever and not bothering anyone. It’s only when a person harms another entity, whether under the influence or not, is when we should step in. Let’s release these non-violent drug offenders and fill the cells up with child rapists and murderers!

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Gotta love these prohibitionist sock puppets on here lol.

To this day the prohibitionists have not demonstrated how drinking a beer or smoking a bowl in one’s free time not bothering anyone is not responsible. Mick I ask you, who compared a pot smoker or beer drinker to a pedophile. Get a life Mick. Get your head out of Rush Limbaugh or fox news or the private prison lobby’s ass! You are a joke, along with all the other prohibitionists who still can’t prove any of their war on drugs crap.

You wanna lock someone in prison for drinking beer or smoking pot? Move to Iran or Saudi Arabia and get out of America. And COgrim it’s doubtful you have any BA or a degree of any kind, you sound like some redneck creationist. You wanna call Noam Chomsky, Milton Friedman, Penn Jillette, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, or myself druggies when we criticize your neo-fascist policies? It’s people like you who give a bad name to law enforcement, get out of the field dumby! ;) Same with Crakinheds sockpuppet and the “Correctionator” (trying to imitate Arnold??). And Bossdog are you stoned?

Once again;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Efficacy

You can’t argue with numbers so be quiet.

Hey Mick why don’t you go on television and announce to everyone how you are going to free up prison space that houses pedophiles for pot smokers and beer drinkers and talk about how they are as worse as pedophiles. You must be trolling.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

"""Rational the sum of your argument is that the present drug laws are evil, immoral and bad for society. I and many of my colleagues will agree with me on this is that your argument sounds very like the arguments I have heard from convicted paedophiles. They all so believe that laws that convicted them are evil,immoral and bad for society and that they were persecuted by an over bearing Government. My question is do we scrap child protection laws because a small minority of people feel hard done by? The same applies to the Drug Laws. The Law is there to protect society. Each and everyone of will feel hard done by one law or another at some time but 99.99% of us will suck it up and accept it as a necessary inconvenience for the good of society."""

YOU are the one who just compared responsible drug users to pedophiles. That pretty much shows that you must be using some dumb creationist type of logic. Or are you on something?

Tell me Mick? So a person who drinks beer or smokes pot in his house not bothering anyone is equivalent to someone who rapes kids? Like I said…..you said it! Stop disgracing our field with your insane school logic. If you think it’s ok to throw responsible drug users, be it alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, cannabis, ect. into prison while equating them to pedophiles, you need to get your head examined.

“Whatever he’s on is some potent stuff. He can’t see the connection between crime and illegal drugs, but he somehow connects evolution with prohibition and for some reason has determined we’re cheering drunks. Poor guy. That brain is definately deep-fried.”

So everyone who is against prohibition is automatically a drug user? You my friend exhibit far right bigoted view on people who disagree with your small dogmatic brain.

So does Milton Friedman, Noam Chomsky, Penn Jillete, ect. appear like drugged out hippies when they speak against your racist bigoted prohibition on certain drugs? Even though they have never used drugs and don’t intend to? You my friend need to get an education. POs/COs tend to work far more efficiently with a college education. Perhaps you should get one. It’s a shame they don’t mandate at least a bachelors in many US states for COs.

Oh and if your for the prohibition of drugs be consistent and be for the prohibition of all drugs including caffeine, tobacco, and alcohol. Otherwise your flimsy straw man arguments is flawed. It is you my friend who has probably had their brain fried with drugs if this is the type of illogic you use.

"""I also love how he thinks he has a monopoly on “common sense and reason” but can’t seem to grasp the connection between losers impaired by drugs to assaults and other crime. Looks like someone is just angry he keeps paying too much for his drugs and waking up broke, sticky and confused in a jail cell. I’ll lay odds his foil hat is full of residue."""

Here’s some common sense logic for you. There is a difference between responsible drug use (eg drinking liquor in the privacy of your house) and doing crime under the influence (getting into a drunken fight). If you do the crime you do the time, it doesn’t matter if you are under the influence. Now saying all people who get under the influence is automatically going to do criminal things is an absurd idea. Most people get drunk in private and don’t get behind the wheel, rob, or rape.

Irresponsible drug abuse, like doing crime under the influence, will stay as illegal post-prohibition as it will during prohibition. So the drunk brawlers or coke robbers would still go to prison. That doesn’t sound like a bad idea does it?

“This troll is persistent, I’ll give him that. This one has established a good pattern of twisting replies to an absurd spin in order to validate his rhetoric. Shyster salesmen and politicians do the same thing. They stretch something to a preposterous conclusion to make themselves look more reasonable and their talking points more factual compared to other’s. See how he keeps saying “if you are FOR this, you are also FOR (insert much worse thing here). What a tool. The “let-me-educate-you-you’re-a-neanderthal” attitude is a great touch too. Prime example of a narcissistic zealot with an agenda. He’s definitely on something. I give him 6 months till he’s on a milk crate in a public park wearing a foil hat with his wiener hanging out and preaching about the coming apocalypse engineered by the government.”

My friend, the numbers speak for themselves. Is there something wrong with bring in raw data? The war on drugs is a complete failure and so is all victimless crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Efficacy

"""But Mick, he posted links to evolution and heliocentrism. Don’t look at the tired, bitter grapes pothead hippie ramblings, look at the links. They show how smart he he is so he MUST be right. One plus one does not equal three!"""

Aw come on you can’t handle a little humor on the side? The point of posting those links is to show you that the war on drugs/prohibition is as un-scientific as creationism and geo-centrism. Snicker all you want friend, doesn’t change the facts. ;)

“Well played, BossDogg. Well played.

EXCEPT your post was 42 paragraphs too short. You demonstrated excellent narcissism and scorn but need to be much more blustery, shrill and long-winded."

Yup, just like you. I’m not the one who said that everyone who doesn’t agree with your dogmatic views of prohibition is a drugged out hippy. You fail again friend. Milton Friedman (right winger), Noam Chomsky (left winger), Penn Jillette, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, and myself are all against prohibition and we don’t use any drugs. Same with the officers in LEAP. Just hard facts and logic. This isn’t a left-right issue or a partisan issue.

"""Ok, I’ll play your silly little game.

You people who are for drug legalization are brain cell hating nazis! If you are against enforcing laws against drugs, you are also against enforcing laws against pedophilia, necrophilia, murder, arson and tax evasion. Get out of the Cretaceous period and get some science book learning, of which I have more than you. Despite what you might think, the Scarecrow was WRONG when he said “The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side.” The actual Pythagorean Theorem is: The sum of the squares of the legs of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse. So you see, you are not as smart and are therefore WRONG. Here is further proof that you are wildly misguided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_weaving

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

You cannot argue with science. So if you have an ounce of decency and self-respect, you would stop supporting vicious drug lords and pushers and yakuza bosses and telemarketers and oppose the infestation of the poisons that are killing children and Camaro-driving mullet-wearing Lynyrd Skynard fans alike."""

To this day you have not demonstrated how responsible drug use is wrong. Your myopic satire of doesn’t address the fact that it is quite logical that prohibition does not work and that is is quite un-scientific. The efficacy of the war on drugs is easily seen, it doesn’t work. Time to treat all drugs like we treat alcohol, legalize for adults, regulate the quality, tax, the profit,and focus on keeping drugs out of children rather than responsible adults. Harm reduction and treating drugs as a medical issue shows far better results than making victimless crimes.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

I personally make the choice not to do any drugs, not even coffee (caffeine) let alone alcohol, or tobacco. Some of you don’t seem to realize that prohibition is a non-partisan issue that has little to do with liberal or conservative labels;but rather common sense and reason. Prohibition is as un-scienitific and destructive of a philosophy than geo-centrism and creationism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Efficacy

And for those of you who believe in prohibition there is a good chance you might also believe in other non-sense fairy tail, so check these to treat your un-scientific ignorance that has little to basis in reality;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Get out of the stone age and stop making law enforcement look like a bunch of vice law neanderthals! You prohibition advocates give a bad name to us working in the field. You paint cops as fascist freedom hating people when the true law cops amongst us just want to protect society from the REAL criminals (murderers, rapists, robbers, assaulters, fraudsters, ect.).

It’ ironic how some of you talk in such blanket terminology “drugs”. Be a bit more academically specific! So are you saying you are for the prohibition of alcohol, tobacco, and even caffeine? If you’re going to be a prohibitionist, at least be consistent. What about the delirium intoxication of datura belladonna, and brugmensia, and the like? And power intoxicating and withdrawal effects of alcohol that are as bad as the withdrawal symptom of cocaine or heroin!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

So what’s up with you people who aren’t for outright legalization of cannabis and other soft psychoactives? When alcohol and tobacco are far worse? One plus one does not equal three!

And for the record, all victimless crimes. Responsibly using anything without harming someone is not a victimless crime?

“He was high on something and had just beat the living daylights out of his wife and little girl.”

Let me try to educate you on fundamental civics my friend, which obviously you got very little of in your training. Beating up your wife and little girl is called assault. That’s a crime with a victim and would be illegal. Smoking a plant to relax or unwind after a hard days work is not the same as beating your wife and little girl. What kind of twisted comparison was that?? Are you trolling? People get drunk on LEGAL drugs (alcohol) and beat their spouses and family all the time, why aren’t you talking about this? The fact is that ALL drug abuse whether LEGAL or illegal, is as destructive as the prohibition of responsible drug use.

Datura and other delirients are notorious for causing criminal behavior even to a worse extent than alcohol and yet those are legal and ignored? You want to look at the pillhead (btw what “pills” was he using Mr. Blanket terms) and want to ignore the crime done under alcohol, delirient, and other legal drugs?

Way to fail. To the responders who are for prohibition, stop trying to cover up your support of ignorance and injustice by calling any constructive criticism of your illogical freedom-hating faith based dogma “trolling”. There are plenty of decent people, from normal people to fellow correctionl officers that wouldn’t want to be in your club of prohibitionism (and probably creationism as well considering both are deduced using the same illogic). The folks at LEAP would call you a troll for supporting laws that are on par with the jim crow laws of old! Oh btw is it any surprise that blacks are disproportionately arrested for drug laws, as bad as the south africa apartheid? Pitty they weren’t using some nice white man’s whiskey eh, instead of smoking some brown man’s herb? If you are far the war on certain drugs you are also in favor a a racist policy as well!

You think it’s funny when some parent locks away for responsibly smoking some pot, leaving the children without parent(s), while hypocritically cheering some alcoholic who is far more likely to be abusive to their family while legally drunken. Is this the type of example you want to set for your society?

To all the prohibition on certain drug trolls, if you have nothing logical to back up your illogical beliefs on why you think it’s ok to violate the humans rights and civil liberties of the people, other than sketchy ancedotes filled with blanket terminology and stories that that have little to do with the real topic, then don’t even bother to respond. Assaulting someone while intoxicated on pills is worlds apart from someone who smoking some pot and playing the guitar. The former is a victim and therefore a crime, the latter is not. If you’re a prohibitionist that can’t understand that simple logic you need to educate yourself more.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

"""Well now you’ve gone from half-way sensible debate to ranting name-calling lunatic. You toss around words like “unscientific” and “hypocritical” and then you yourself make all kinds of assumptions and completely ignore the reality of what exactly drug abuse and drug addiction does to people, to the abuser AND those around him. And typical of your ilk, when faced with logic you resort to name-calling and emotion-based rhetoric. You even pretty much ignored some key points of my post- I SAID I am open-minded in the marijuana legalization debate. I’m pretty open-minded in general where it comes to more benign drugs. But if it’s illegal, my job is to do my part in it’s enforcement. Sorry you don’t like that. Talk of decency and honor coming from you is just plain ironic comedy so play another card."""

If you read your original post, it’s filled with far more emotion-based rhetoric than the logical passion I put into my post. Arguing for any type of prohibition is no different than arguing for creationism or anything else that is not grounded in logical science or human rights. Be open-minded to marijuana legalization is hardly equivalent to being open-minded, that’s like saying someone who is for the theory of gravity is open-minded. It’s fundamental logic to be in support of marijuana legalization, and the fact that you are not outright in support of this relatively benigh herb, when given the hard science on the subject only shows you are only trying to pose as open-minded. Besides there are loads of far right-winger who will say they are open-minded to marijuana legalization. It’s one way neo-cons try to appear to be less radical than they actually are.

You completely ignore the reality of what exactly drug abuse and drug addiction does to people by ignoring the fact that prohibition only makes drug problems worse if you did not notice. Take cannabis prohibition for instance…before cannabis was prohibited it was something only done by mexican immigrants, jazz musicians, and the like; when prohibition came around it turned into a very popular recreational act by both adults and young people alike. Alcohol prohibition made it more popular for women to drink when women never usually drank before prohibition. Crack cocaine was invented because of prohibitionist demand. Heroin users are far more at risk under prohibition from getting a bad batch of illegal unregulated products and sharing needles, all because there is no control over it’s use. I can go on and on. The fact here is that you have no idea how much hell it is for a person to be a drug addict and how much wore this disease is made with prohibition. And the fundamental thing you need to grasp is that drug abuse is a public health/medical issue, NOT a criminal justice one. What part of that is so hard to understand?

Go ahead and do your job, not like you can change what type of prisoners you guard that come in. But if you are a responsible officer you would oppose irrational prohibition laws that infringe on fundamental human rights and make drug abuse issues worse. Not much “name-calling” at all in my post, only pointing out the hard fact that you should accept. I am sorry if my post seems so harsh for you, but I don’t like to beat around the bush with the cold heart truth bro.

"""No, I am not a freedom-hating fascist. I LOVE freedom from drugged-out losers destroying our society. Now, I don’t give a rip about one person’s freedom to abuse drugs when that abuse makes him steal and rob to support his habit because he can’t even work a menial job. I have no real opinion on prohibition of alcohol because 1: I don’t drink and 2: There is currently no law against it. My job relates to things that ARE illegal and I believe in upholding the law. I do hate alcoholics who get behind the wheel and kill and maim as much as I hate meth-heads. My arguments carry no weight with YOU because you aren’t concerned with the effects drug abuse has on people, you’re only concerned with some hippie emo-feely sentiment of letting everyone do whatever drugs they want regardless of what it does to society. Your argument that bus drivers can drive drunk really is a flimsy argument for letting them drive stoned."""

Your argument carries no weight whatsoever, because you don’t care about the even worse damage prohibition created does with drug abuse. I and other rational people on the other hand are for a harm reduction and tackling the REAL problems of drug abuse. You bring up people robbing and stealing to support their habit, without even realizing the fact that such theft stems from prohibition and cost of drugs being so high and availability being so low. No reason to go rob and steal for heroin when it’s sold and regulated in a store, is there? Now try applying your flimsy logic to other drugs, let’s say tobacco for instance. Tobacco is one of the most addicting drugs around, can you imagine the amount of robbing that would occur from tobacco addicts who can’t get there fix if it became illegal? No reason to rob and steal for tobacco if it is legal and regulated in a store, is there? Your argument make no sense whatsoever….if you legalized and regulated other drugs like what is done with legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco, there wouldn’t be likely any drug-addicting based robbing at all. So by supporting prohibition you only support the robbing that you claim to be against. And for the record, robbing a store for any reason, whether it be to get money to buy drugs or robbing to get money to buy a new car, house, ect. will always be illegal. The point of the law is to punish the robbers regardless of the reason why they robbed (which if it had to do with drug anyways it has to do with prohibition).

You have no opinion on alcohol because you don’t drink…so is this your attitude towards other drugs too? You don’t have an opinion towards meth because you don’t do it? It doesn’t sound like that is your stance, it seems you want to nit-pick certain illegal drug and ignore the problem than big legal drugs like alcohol do. Like I said if you are going to be for prohibition you should be for alcohol prohibition, as it is up there with cocaine, meth and heroin as one of the most abused drugs and the potential of alcohol addiction is certainly as high as with heroin addiction. Not sure what any of this logic and reason has to do with “hippy-emo” sentiments….and I’m no drug advocate….I’m an advocate rational sane legal policy. Policies that actually and realistically tackle the problems of drugs instead of turning it into a witch hunt (it’s no wonder prohibitionist advocates tend to be on the religious fundamentalist side more often than not).

Driving a bus or any vehicle drunk is FAR FAR FAR worse than driving a vehicle stoned. They’re not even in the same category. Instead of getting your facts from some reefer madness propaganda, why don’t you read a basic neuro-pharmacology reference or textbook or something? BTW if people can drive drunk as they can drive stoned why aren’t you for banning alcohol then? Your keep dis-crediting your opinion by having no consistent opinion on dangerous legal drugs like alcohol or datura. You are beginning to really show how much your opinion is based off no facts what-soever. BTW driving impaired due intoxicated will always be illegal, no matter what becomes illegal. No bs prohibition law is needed to control impaired driving.

"""You really reveal just how dubious your critical thinking skills are with your last two paragraphs. I re-read my post and I just can’t seem to find any references to religion or supporting the release of pedophiles and murderers. And nope, no indication that I support Al Capones or Pablo Escobars (those guys were criminals, you know. AND are currently quite dead.) No, it is not illogical to support laws that restrict the ability of morons and lowlifes to damage our society. Again, you are in the throes of a delusion that drug abuse and addiction is a “victimless” crime. I almost daily have to wrangle and fight a crackhead or stoner who just came in off the street with one or several victims in his wake. So take your libtard rhetoric elsewhere. You won’t make any headway with anyone here in this forum. Go build yourself a nice compound in a desert somewhere and gather yourself some hippies and stoners and “freedom” loving followers and have yourself a perfect utopian society. You aren’t happy obeying laws and have all the answers so go show us all how it’s done in a place where you’ll just be a danger to YOURSELF."""

How much more foolish do you want to make yourself sound? If you didn’t understand the point of the last two paragraphs perhaps you should go back to grammar school. The point I was making with those is that being in support of prohibition is no different than being a creationist or a flat-worlder geo-centrist. It’s just as illogical, irrational, and un-scientific. And not to mention at it’s core being fundamentally un-constitutional.

When you support prohibition you are supporting pedophiles and murderers to a degree since there are many over-crowded prisons across america who are releasing such real criminals and filling them up instead with non-violent victimless drug offenders. If that isn’t anymore proof of support of the real criminals, when you support a law that makes it easier for pedophiles, murderers, robbers, ect. to be released for freeing up of prison space for victimless crime offenders, then what is?

You also don’t seem to realize how much you support the Al Capones and Pablo Escobars (BTW if you didn’t notice I’m using them to refer to prohibition-based drug lords in general, living or dead), since you support their illegal business by creating it in the first place. BTW it’s usually the small-time drug dealers that are caught, very rarely are the big bosses caught. Not surprising at all is that drug lords, much like Capone and Escobar of old, support drug laws as much as folks like you do. Gee I wonder why? Maybe because you are both out to make a buck at the cost of people’s suffering. There you go, that’s the real reason why you support prohibition. Many in the more privatized correctional industry are especially in support of more prohibition in order to maximize profits.

You are saying it is “not illogical to support laws that restrict the ability of morons and lowlifes to damage our society”, yet the law only targets certain morons and lowlifes who in your words “damage society”. What about the alcoholics? So they are free to be morons and lowlifes that damage society but somehow a cocaine addict is different? Your entire argument falls apart, due to the very thing that I have been trying to point out to you that you lack: consistency in your position. There is very little consistency whatsoever. Your opinion is like, for example, targeting rapists and not targeting murderers. You are just picking and choosing which “morons and low lifes” to go after. BTW drug addiction is a disease, not a sign o moral defect, unless that person did something morally defecting while under the influence. Your logic is no different than calling victims of heart disease, cancer, ect. low lies and morons. And for the record, tons and tons of people waste away their life sitting in front of a tv or some other representation of life. They can easily be considered on par with the “moron low lifes” you are nitpicking. Does your logical call for prohibition of tv as well then? Where do you draw the line?

It’s obvious that you don’t care about the drug addicts and it is obvious you don’t want to help them when you talk about them in such crude terms. We don’t automatically say an alcoholic is a scumbag unless he did something scumbaggy under the influence. Much in the same way an addict of any other drug is not a scumbag until he actually does something dangerous under the influence. An alcoholic, like any other drug addict, has a medical issue and should be treated as such.

Finally, the statement that dismantles everything you have to say. “Wrangle crackheads and stoners”? Lmao, this statement just shows how ignorant and illogical you are. I can understanding wrangling a crackhead, alcoholic, or opiate addict/abuser……..but “stoners”? Oh please, are you even a correctional officer? I don’t remember the last time I’ve seen a “stoner” pot-smoker causing mayhem or having several “victims in their wake”. You are obviously basing your opinions on reefer madness propaganda, not true scientific facts. And if you want to claim that pot-smokers are a menace in your prisons then I strongly question whether you have any experience what-soever as a correctional officer.

I’m not surprised you are using such logic. After all you are trying to turn the movement against prohibition and towards rational drug policy into something that in your mind is nothing more than “libtard rhetoic”. You must be on the far right if you think that, being against prohibition is not a partisan issue at the very least. The folks at LEAP (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php) are not a bunch of libtard hippies, they are cops from all over the political spectrum who want to go after real crime, not some vice crap that has nothing to do with true criminal justice. All you do is damage the reputation of law enforcement when you support the type of un-scientific rhetoric you do.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

Mick, Like I said our system is meant to be a republic that protects the rights of individuals from a minority or majority. And besides, a lot more people are against prohibition than you think. Prohibition goes against the principles of democracy and individual liberty. Period. And no amendment was ever passed to ban other illegal drugs, so the drug laws in existence today are unconstitutional in reality. Same with many measures in the Patriot Act. So prohibition is not only immoral but unconstitutional to the core.

COGrim, you sound like some far right wing nutjob. Prohibition is NEVER ok, it’s un-scientific. You my friend are a freedom-hating facsist….and for the record are you for alcohol prohibition too? Since alcohol is far more destructive than cannabis for instance? Seriously dude, read some science instead of your bs.

“High thugs” what are you on crack? You sound like hypocritical drug abuser yourself. Alcohol is more dangerous than many illegal drugs, so are you consistent in your philosophy and want to ban those? How about datura, jimson weed, tobacco, dxm, and other legal poisons? School bus drivers can’t drive drunk? Being drunk is worse than being stoned, your arguments carry no weight. Your pathetic defense of illogical tyranny has no basis in science. Harm reduction nations have less problems with drug abuse over all than America.

BTW the earth is not flat, the center of the universe, or 6,000 years old. Religious fundamentalists like yourself COGrim need to grow some decency and honor or just leave the field. Your not much different than a neo-fascist when you advocate unconstitutional victimless crimes.

The fact that you support measures that release rapists, pedophiles, and murderers to free up prison space for drug use is sickening. Your attitude on role of law enforcement makes our society more dangerous. You really should be ashamed that you support the Al Capones and the Pablo Escobars as well with your illogical rantings.

Topic: A Broader View / Should jails implement more rehabilitation programs?

Prison and jails should certainly implement more rehabilitation programs, as rehabilitation is an important part of reforming a criminal. But one thing we should keep in mind is that the primary function of a prison is to contain criminals who are a danger to the public (which is why they are locked up in the first place). Punishment is as important as rehabilitation as well, since while there are those who really want to reform, there are others who don’t give a crap and don’t want to change. It really depends on the inmate. With some prisoners rehabilitation works better but with others punishment is the only deterrent. It really depends on how much the prisoner wants to change. Some prisoners never want to change and others can’t change, so when rehabilitation doesn’t work containment and punishment are the only way.

Topic: A Broader View / Prison & Slavery - A Surprising Comparison

According to the 13th amendment of the constitution;

“Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

So using prisoners who have been convicted of a crime as slave labor is not exactly outside the bounds of the constitution. However it sounds very ridiculous in this day and age to bring back corporal punishment and slavery. Prisons are meant to contain, punish, and rehabilitate people who broke the law and are a danger to the community; not create free or cheap labor. It’s highly doubt that a red collar for example would deter some violent un-punished un-rehabilitated offenders, especially if the source of that violence is something more underlying like mental illness or psychopathy.

The current problem of mass incarceration is linked to the war on drugs and the large amount of normal, non-violent drug offenders that are crammed into our over-crowded prisons. Repeal prohibition completely, replace it with regulation, and end the war on drugs. The money saved from not incarcerating victimless crimes would increase the amount of prison space and funding for containment rehabilitation of the real criminals. That is the best way to decrease the prison population and funding for it.

As others here have pointed out, the theory proposed by Galaxydude, while thought provoking, seems like some republican scam to turn prisons into cheap labor factories. This is why prisons run by private for profit corporations are not ideal at the very least, it’s all about $$$. Nor would prisons run by religious institutions make any sense either, and that sounds even more ridiculous.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

They were elected by free and fair elections? You must be living in some fantasy land (read the book Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky). You fail to realize that America was intended to be a republic, not a mobocracy where individual rights can be voted away. By your logic Hitler was voted in a free and fair election, and those rights he took away from the jews was the will of the People and through Hitler the people have spoken right? Your logic does not pass. By your logic we can vote any right away by voting in a corrupt freedom-hating politician.

Remember when alcohol prohibition was passed? It took a constitutional amendment to get it passed because the certain fear-mongering politicians at that time knew that the right to put whatever what wants in their bodies is protected by the US constitution. This is also why the first bureau of narcotics was created under the treasury department and other drug laws were handled through there. And how were those first drug laws passed? Through yellow journalism and racism (eg think reefer madness).

So as far as “free and fair elections” goes there was never a chance for such, nor a big scientific inquiry for other prohibitions started nor was there any adequate time to discuss efficacy of such prohibitions.

I don’t understand why certain law enforcement officers are so obsessed with gaining a few extra bucks that they have to resort to enforcing corrupt unconstitutional laws when all it does in breed hate and contempt for cops and disrespect of the law. Such laws not only make cops look like un-trustworthy freedom haters, it also makes us look racist, as blacks and hispanics are disproportionately arrested and incarcerated for drug laws.

There is no “crying” here; only stating the obvious logical facts. Some research and education will show anyone how ineffective and counter productive prohibition and other vice laws are. You are welcome to disagree but it doesn’t change the cold hard facts.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

“Rational Law, You have your opinion and I have mine so I won’t get into a political debate over the rights and wrongs of Drugs. "

Ok, you are entitled to your own opinion on how drugs should be handled politically and have the right to not discuss it. I just want to point out one thing though. If you are for the prohibition of “drugs”, you have to be for the prohibition of alcohol, tobacco, and even caffeine, otherwise your position would not be consistent and there would be hypocrisy within it (not saying you are for prohibition, just pointing this out). Other legal drugs such as datura, belladonna, brugmansia, dxm, ect. should all be considered as well since many of these very legal drugs are far dangerous than most illegal drugs, much like alcohol and tobacco are more damaging than many illegal drugs.

“But the fact remains that we as Law Enforcement Officers join the Job with the full knowledge that we are employed to Enforce the Law.”

Is that the only responsibility though? If the laws was unjust should cops really enforce them? I understand that law enforcement officers are there to do their job and get out, go home, and have a normal life like everyone else. But just “doing the job” seems to ignore the ethics of the job being done in favor of just the pay. If for instance a officer was forced to enforce a “law” that violated the bill of rights of the constitution, eg freedom of speech for instance; should the officer just stand by and enforce the unjust deed? Well I imagine he/she would feel forced to, since they could loose their job if they don’t listen to certain senior officers. So maybe the problem is certain people in upper management within the field. This still doesn’t justify bindly enforcing unjust laws. Furthermore the Constitution and freedoms it enshrines overrides any other laws that claim to be the real law. So I think the main issue here isn’t so much the real law, but rather the phony laws that violate the constitution that the politicians have cooked up and what the senior officers are forced to enforced. So perhaps I’ll move on to your next point;

“Politicians are elected by you and me to make the Law. So would your comments not be better aimed at your elected representatives who have the power to change and/or amend the laws to what you feel would be a more suitable alternative.”

Yes, you are right that politicians are elected to make the law. However like in any nation in history there are many corrupt politicians that don’t have slightest interest of the people in mind. Hitler was elected by popular vote into power and he made many laws that his officers should have not enforced. The same is true in America for the many politicians who create irrational anti-freedom laws to get votes and gain money. If the law said all minorities should be treated like second class citizens should such a law be ever enforced (which many drug laws try to do anyways)? If a law is created by another politician that says that certain forms of free speech are prohibited, should cops even try to enforce such an unjust law?

This all may come back to officers just “doing their job”. But I think law enforcement no matter what rank should take a more active responsibility to oppose such irrational unfair laws. It’s quite clear that America was never meant to be a “prohibitionist” nation. This goes against the very principle core of freedom that Americans want to claim as one of their most precious; the right to do what one wants as long as they don’t infringe upon the rights of others. The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I suppose the main problem though is that cops make a lot of money on victimless crimes like drug and prostitution laws. This is why or instance that the private correction corporations lobby for more victimless crimes and tougher laws for victimless crimes. After all; more than half of the country locked up in prisons are there for drugs. It’s all about money, never mind the morality and ethics of such laws.

LEAP is one law enforcement organization that is trying to move towards the end of prohibition…but there certainly should be more done by law enforcement all over the country and even globally…one organization isn’t enough.

Topic: A Broader View / Prohibition and Victimless "Crimes" breed hate towards cops, against the fundamental principles of Civil Liberties and should be Abolished

“The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.” — Albert Einstein

I wanted to start with the quote above as it sums up a major problem in our criminal justice system. This problem is of course prohibition and victimless “crimes”. The war on drugs is a phony failure that defies any scope of human reason. Likewise victimless crimes such as prostitution has been around since the pre-history and it makes no sense to prohibit it when this industry is in high need of regulation. The sex and drug industry will never be eliminated, no matter how harsh you legislate. These services are based off some of the most fundamental drives of the human species and indeed nearly all other multicellular, eukaryotic organisms of the biological kingdom Metazoa.

It should be first pointed out that prohibition and such victimless crimes goes against one of fundamental principle that many Americans want claim as one of their country’s most precious attributes: freedom and liberty. If you do not have sovereign control over your own body and mind what sort of rights can you claim you have? A person who cannot put whatever one wants in their bodies or minds cannot claim to live in a free nation. What a person does especially in the privacy of their own homes is no business to the state, as long as they are not harming another individual.

People who abuse illegal drugs like cocaine or heroin should be treated the same as those who abuse legal drugs like alcohol. We don’t lock up alcoholics for possession of their drug. As with alcohol people should be held accountable for their actions while under the influence, but there should otherwise be no anti-freedom penalties for responsible use that does not harm anyone. Illegal drug abusers like legal drug abusers need medical treatment, not prison. You don’t throw alcoholics or any other type of abuser in prison when they can go to rehab.

While there has been some reform in this area, such as diverting non-violent drug offenders to treatment, but this is still a total violation of civil liberties to have a criminal record for merely using drugs or being forced into when no real crime has been done. The person should only be forced into treatment is they are using drugs irresponsibly (ie risk of getting intoxicated and harming others).

And as we all know certain illegal “drugs”, like cannabis and psilocybin; are far safer and healthier than popular legal drugs like tobacco and alcohol. If you are for the prohibition of these safer psychoactives then you should be for the prohibition of the big legal killers too.

Prostitution is another such law. Most of the developed world has legally regulated prostitution and have far more success fighting STDs in the industry. Running prostitutes underground only puts them at greater mercy to illegal brothel owners and such that will abuse them. Many women enter prostitution because they cannot pay make ends meat some other way. Many of them are victims because of the illegal underground nature of their profession.

Our prisons are filled with these non-violent victimless crime offenders, especially with drugs offenses. More than half of the prisoners today are there for such offenses. Crime is far more than ever before and our criminal justice system is far more susceptible to corruption now as it has ever been.

Alcohol prohibition did not work so why do these power hungry politicians insist on continuing the prohibition of other drugs? They use irrational fear-mongering to scare the public into voting for them and then try to make laws that cannot be enforced.

And one of the biggest victims here is not even the drug offender who should not be in prison. Another major victim here is cops, correctional officers, ect. Cops were one of the most respectable public workers for a long time. Then when prohibition came things change. People want murder, rape, robbery, fraud, ect. to be stopped but they don’t like their fundamental liberties being taken from them. Prison is for REAL criminals, why does America insist on releasing rapists and robbers early and replacing them with drug possessors? Does this make any public safety sense at all? If you take out the victimless crime laws there would be an overwhelming amount more resources to lock up the real criminals longer. Releasing a child rapist early to fit the new drug offenders does not make the people like them anymore.

There are cops now that have been fighting prohibition and to put an end to the insane war on drugs. I suggest any correctional officer or otherwise here interested in learning how to help repeal drug prohibition check out this site;

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition has gotten more vocal in recent times, even making it to the top of the youtube Q@A with the president. When Obama was asked whether he would be in support of ending the drug war, much like many other sold out politicians he said no. This is far more than a party issue though, both republicans and democrats need to stand up for their rights as they do with any other civil liberty.