Topic: A Broader View / Federal Bureau of Prisons

Unfortunately I have to agree with the negative postings here. I was 33 when I began my masters of criminal justice program and 35 when I applied for the BOP. I was one point off the grading matrix and told that due to my education and time on the job (13 years) that the BOP would gladly hire me. When the test examiner asked about my age, 35, and my birthday month, he told me that the one point would drop off two weeks after my max age. At the time, BOP would not hire after 36th birthday. FBI, to which I applied also, would hire up to the 37th year. They changed that last year to the day of the 37th birthday. The whole age issue makes sense, unless the person is physically able to do the job. BOP, FBI, etc are all short on people. Common sense would seem to indicate that they would change the age requirements, make exceptions, (other than vets!!!) etc. If they are worried about retirement, then they can still force people out, just make the monthly payments directly related to how much time you put in, like my state does. 30 is the age when people just start becoming mature. The only reason why Law enforcement like them young is for the reason the military does: you can brainwash a 21 year old who know’s nothing about the world, but a 30 year old that’s been around the block may look at you funny when you tell them to storm the beach: that’s what artillery is for they may say. Training is not an issue because if they want the job they will learn the new idea. BTW: if younger is better, then why does the constitution have minimum age requirments for House of Reps and the Senators?

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

gbeck, not trying to start a war with you either, so were on the same page there! My wife is always saying I need more tact…..I’m 37, one child, wife has to work full time ‘cause of my wages, house bills, cars are paid for, etc. funny, before the prison (15 years) I work in manufacturing. I have an undergrad and masters. It appears our lives are very similar. The article referenced was just one article, I found litearlly hundreds, so in my opinion the scientific evidence is clear on long work hours. granted, which job you do will affect it. They have found that sedentary jobs, i.e. office are just as bad for long hours as hard work: they both have the same effect in the end. On hours: there a total of 168 hour per week. 40 working leaves your 128 hours. 40 sleeping leaves you 88 hours of ff dutie time. Now, 48 of that is weekends. Leaves you 40 during the week. And this doesn’t include getting ready for work or drive, so you can probably wittle that down to about 30 hours of off duty, down time in the end. Whether you work 4-10, 5-8, or 3 1/2 12’s, you still work 40 per week. With the different shifts you get different blocks off. That’s all, not more time. Not till we slow down the planet’s rotation. What happened here in Ks is that the pilot program was 3 on 3 off, 2 on 2 off, 3 on, 2 off, (some combinations of 3’s and 2’s). Anyway, our bosses said that since they were working more hours they could more work. Instead of just letting the officers divide the work up between the two shifts, the managers added more duties because they were there more!!!! On top of that, out here we believe in the 40 hour work week. Daycare and sitters would not adjust! No one could find daycare after 5 and had to start relying on family and friends, and they were burning out. After about three months 1/2 of the supervisor stated that if they didn’t go back to 8’s,they would demote to CO’s )contract with KOSE prevents 12’s) or just quit. It was horrible out here. And the supervisors which had to work our seg units started burning sick time to stay away. We’ve already discussed how 12’s burn sick/vacation time faster. Anyway, they switched back to 8’s.

Speaking of sick time, when you burn 12, it’s a lot. Our sick inmates and staff went through the roof. At first our managers could figure it out till a couple of us explained it: when you are sick, you shoudl stay home. If you don’t you just spread it to everyone else. So supervisors were coming to work sick due to using 12, instead of 8 hours, to get well. They were spreading all sorts of nasty nasties to everyone else.

In my opinion, and it is my opinion, when you start laying out facts, it’s really hard to justify 12’s. Now, I agree that some officers like and 12’s work for them, that’s fine. But I would say most don’t, work or like. Which is why most agencies don’t use them.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

gbeck, the research indicates that you are wrong. For just example: http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20110405/working-long-hours-linked-to-heart-disease-risk. They studies civil servant in this study. Most civil servants who work long hours tend to public safety, so…Stress from the job is related to how well you deal with it. People that go into pub. safety enjoy the job so arent’ stressed out by it, except for the obvious: fights, escapes, etc. What happens is a persons body just isn’t designed to work 10-12 hours per day, just isn’t. We are type A personalities so we “feel” fine, but underneath the skin, we are killing ourselves. Why do you think most agencies allow law enforcement to retire early! Because it’s much more stressful compared to most jobs.

A lot of people haven’t really thought about twelve hour shifts. To read that someone thinks they get more time with family? Really? A 40 hour work week is 40 hours, simple math. You don’t get more time with family. You may receive larger blocks at a single time, which is what is happening, but you don’t get more time. Some say you save on gas(the excuse they tried out here) The reality is most people don’t save on gas: they just do all their errands on one day, due to the larger block of time, verses running all week. then there’s the pay issue. If you get paid enough, then the spouse only has to work part-time. And day shift where they work. Out here in the midwest you would be very hardpressed to find a babby sitter daily willing to watch your kids till 7 at night when you come home. Like I said in a previous post: 12’s work if you make the money for it. With only one exception, no one wanted to say how much money they earned.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

As I have repeadtedly stated, the OT works if the state allows it. If not, they give you straight time, if anything at all. A recent study came out and stated that if you work more than 10 hours a day, your chances of heart disease is 6 times greater than if you work 8 hours per day. This would explain why the majority of those in ALL branches of law enforcement die at the age of 56. Sure, you MAY get the extra time now with the family (which is isn’t true — 40 hours is 40 hours, regardless of how you slice it) but you die early and miss out on the extras with the grandchildren. This seems to have been overlooked. Except by state/local legislators whom realize they won’t have to pay the pensions when we are all dead before we can collect them!

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

I think that you hit two nails on the head. First, shifts need to be facility specific. What works for one may not work for another. I just want people to remember that before any one jumps into anything head first, do the research. This is a good place to start. The second nail concerns what you stated about staffing. You stated that when you had 8 hour shifts, you did not have enough staff coverage. That directly proves the following: 12 hour shifts allow admin to reduce workforce by making employees work more! If a department, and I don’t care what agency they are, cannot obtain enough staff to work normal shifts, which in our society is 8-10 hours, then there is something wrong. Especially in this economy. BTW: How do you surive on 12.50 an hour. The national living wage standard is almost 14 an hour, so by that standard at least, you are way underpaid. Do you have a union? If not, get one. I wrote this an re-read your post and I’m reminded of the Sedgwich County, KS sheriff’s department jail They now start, unless they very recently received a pay raise, start at 13.97 per hour. Which is what they started 12 years ago when i applied only so I could move closer to family. They have received no pay raises. Of course, the road deputies have strong union and have all the glory so they receive their pay raises. Detention/Corrections Officers are the overlooked portion of law enforcement, which is why we need strong unions.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

Treh: your example proves my various points. In your first paragraph, one could interpret that mean the following: evening and nights were okay, but days shift worked best. The rotating weekends was merely poorly implemented. At the local state hospital they do it also, but they get every third weekend off. The third paragraph mentions how the twelves ended up de facto due to short staffing. This is different than assigned 12’s. Additionally, you mention that staff on afternoons and nights had a difficult time with family. More on that later. Your fourth paragraph is interesting because you don’t address the issue, unintenionally for sure, about officers with families working the 7pm to 7 am shift: when do they see their family? I’m sure they are sleeping during the day. What is pay like? Daycare: how many daycare providers watch children until 8 at night?

You touch on a very important point: 24 hour jobs. A lot of people entering law enforcement, no matter what the branch, complain about working weekends, holidays, etc. These people have no business in the field. WHen one goes to work in the field, with desperation due to economic slowdown the exception, you know you are working a 24 hours job, like firemen or emt’s. Those that want that badge but have weekends off dont’ truly understand the field. And therefore don’t need to be in it. They are trying to have their cake and eat it also. I have worked all three shifts and I have family. IN my experience, ALL those who complain about 8’s and cannot see family don’t make the time to. Period. FOr example, when I was on afternoons, most have families. Instead of going home and sleeping, they stay up all night and sleep during the day. They only saw the family on their two days off. I say my family four days: weekend mornign and my weekends. Granted, it’s not seven days a week, but enough time. Instead of doing things I wanted to do, I would do what the family wanted. I made the most out of it. Wife and child had no problem.

What I find most interesting, still, without digging on you, is that no one really has replied about pay in those states with 12’s across the board and being propounded as good. Like I posted earlier: Ohio and Wisc. pay extremely well, so their spouses probably don’t have to work. In Ks: our pay is based off of a 80 hours two week period: we would not receive OT for the extra 4. If the economy gets bad enough, I suspsect Treh that they would change your law and take away that pay as well.

Topic: The Club House / Right to Work/Unionization

Okay, I have to get this off my chest. I’m a big union fan, even as a supervisor. Let’s look at Wisconsin. Gov Walker stated that he needed to take away collective bargaining because the union contracts, which include benefits and wage and hours issues, were killing the state budget. Okay, fine. But the new law allows for negotiating for only wage and hour and benefits. What? In other words, Gov Walker allowed unions to negotiate over the very things he claims killed the state budget. Under normal rules of logic, it would be the opposite: you can negotiate hours, work week, etc, but wages and pensions are non-negotiable. Logic just seems to elude some.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

Quite a few road toads, as we call them here in ks, do 12’s. They, the public, catch a lot asleep. really. If the officer is liked, most people turn a blind eye. if they are known locally to be a jerk, usually they are fired by the end of the week.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

Capt, I work in Ks. I researched the 12 hour shifts also. What I found was that there was a distinct difference in the studies between corpate studies and NPO studies. Coorporate studies were almost always self-assesment whereas NPO studies were scientific. One could infer that with the private business the workers had a motive to not be honest considering it may affect their job employment prospect. that’s why double blind studies are the best. I wikipedied (sp?) 12 hour shifts and the references used had almost nothing positive to say about them.

What I find interesting is the pay issue/spousal issue. Again, look at OHIO and Wiscon. They pay extremely well for CO’s and cost of living is not much more than here in KS, and that’s limited to housing. I am strongly suspecting that there are some Admin. here advocating 12’s to drum up support.

You are correct about the error rate for sure. ALL the research indicates that errors increase exponentially after 8 hours. I don’t think that in Law enforcement they would accept the "errors’ The lawyer for the person accidently shot or excessive use of force would say in the settlement meeting “Okay, so the CO used excessive force but we will ask fo rless money due to a 12 hour shift.” No, I would bet that we’d be hung out to dry, no matter how tired we were.

Concerning the fed, I applied for a couple of jobs. They have the LEOAP: Availability Pay. they pay that well so that people can retire after the 20 year mandatory time. if you have a BA, you can start at the BOP with about 48K. If you have a masters, it’s about 56K. When I talk to younger CO’s, they seem to like 12’s. But when you talk to the CO’s with a couple of years, they don’t.

To me, here’s all one needs to ask: do you really want to work Segregation will all that screaming and feces throwing for 12 hours for a whole one year rotation? if you cannot say “Yes” then 12 hour shifts should be avoided.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

I’m going to try to address this topic without inciting a riot. First, I would love to read surveys, not “everybody seems to like it.” Our admin. did the same thing. They took a vote of the supervisors before the supervisors had a chance to vote. Get it? Second, scientific research outweighs antecdotal evidence. Sure, some guys like 12’s, but the research done in scholarly journals point to the opposite. Additionally, switching from nights to days every couple of weeks and/or months is horribly punishing on the body. Most leo’s are type A personality and they “think” they are okay. But take them to a doctor and put them through a stess test and I bet the Dr. will tell them something different. Capt. Burrhead: when you say the documentation is for it, what’s “It”? For or against the 12’s. Like I posted earlier, if you have a spouse which can pick up the kids and drop them off at school, great. If not, someone’s looking for a new job. Since 25% of teh American economy is the health industry, I’d bet it would affect a lot of CO’s.

Again, how do you rotate nights and days with a working spouse with children? You just cannot, unless your spouse doens’t have to work full time AND you don’t have kids. The fact that that facet has not been addressed in this forum implies a lot in my book.

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

My prison tried to go to 12’s for the MstSgts about five years ago and it failed miserably. They were burnt out after only three months! Most had already openly declared their intention to quit if things weren’t changed back. I put together a report for these guys from research I had conducted showing that 12’s were horrible. At least two of them stated openely that from then on any mistakes made after 8 hours wasn’t going to the their fault. 8 hours shifts were reinstated. Money is the problem because admin spends it on things we don’t need, in my opinion. For example: why do all my dept. heads, and others, need Droid’s and Blackberrys? They do not. Prisons operated just fine without them. Buy Trac phones if they need them for emergencies. We throw away half of the food we serve the inmates. There’s a waste of taxpayer dollars.

12 hours shifts abosultely do not work unless as entry CO you are making 55-60K per year so the spouse doesn’t have to work. End of story

Topic: The Club House / 12 Hour Shifts

Without trying to flame: how many admin. post here? Seriously. With twelve hour shifts you can completely fire your night shift. SO they are now unemployed. Plus, the extra four ours of OT is possible only your state law allows it. In many states LEO get paid for a 80 hour two-week period. Plus: how do you see your family if you work 6 PM to 6 AM? 12 hours work great if you get paid a lot. If you are a normal CO, which means you recieve at most 75% of road patrol pay, your spouse will need to work. My wife works in a hospital. At night. So getting the children to and from school becomes an issue. What else. Oh yeah: ever worked 12 hours on a seg unit. EVERY staff I know is tired after 8.

Then there’s the safety issue. A lot of research has been done on what is the best length of shift. Most in hospitals because that’s where about 80% are done. after 8 hours misdiag. and charting errors increase. After 10 hours they go up dramatically. At the 11 hours mark, well, let’s just say it isn’t pretty. This is why most hospitals are shifting away from 12 hours shifts.
12 hours work great if your make enough money and don’t do any serious brainwork. Corrections is not. I bet if one that works twelve hours compares how they treat staff now vs. when they worked 8 there’s is no doubt it is much, much different.