I bought my wife a stun gun a few years ago for christmas which she keeps in her purse. One time we were in the Wallmart parking lot when this beggar came up to the window wanting money. I told him he should never approach a car with women and children in it. He kept knocking on the window trying to get me to give him money. My wife pulled out her stun gun and puled the trigger. The guy stared at the lightining bolts for a second and then said “that’s alright man”, then left to beg from someone else. I looked at my wife and she just shrugged and said “Works every time”.

Hahaha, yeah my husband says he wants video when I get gassed and sprayed, he might want to remember he usually goes to sleep before I do :)

Well Irish, I screwed up the other day. Nothing to do with Chemical Agents but, thought you would enjoy this. My wife accompanied me to a new gun store, on 850 towards Bidwell, off east 35. I thought it funny since she never went to gun stores with me but, an alarm went off telling me not to question her motives. When we went in (looks like a small Cabelas), she went to the guy behind the counter and said, I want a stun gun. The alarm grew louder in my ears. When we got home, she had to put in the battery and test it. Thank God not on me. BUt, she did have a funny look in her eyes when she see the bolt of lightning come out of it. 800,000 volts. I told her how much I loved her but, I would not be her test subject. Slept with one eye open that night for sure.

I really wish the supervisors I have now would learn that lesson, but nope.

I was used to the hands on system of handling problems, we did that every day for years until OC was authorized. It took quite a long time before supervisors finally learned it was safer to use OC instead of getting officers hurt going into a cell extraction. The next step they are working on is an active CERT team, that would be the best solution.

Generally just the presence of a can of FOX and the situations is resolved now. We only have it issued to certain posts, high traffic areas, but it is more than worth it’s weight in gold. I like the hands on control myself, but that’s my preference.

Before we had pepper spray…before we had cameras installed everywhere except the toilets…we had one tool that worked quite well to quell problems in the blocks, especially the juvenile block. They had a real bad group of kids that trashed the block constantly. Then they decided on night it would be fun to throw feces at each other. We locked the block down and the supervisor came. So the equalizer was: water. He told me to get the hose so I brought the garden hose over, then he said…no the inch and a half fire hose. Needless to say every kid in the block had his clothes blown off, everything was soaking wet from top to bottom. Then we opened the windows (it was winter) and left. Of course you can’t do that anymore. Darn…

Armchair quarterbacks are one of the biggest reason people spending the majority of life in acadamia and then given the chance to lead those with real world experience will always be a failure and a bad idea. Having a college edjucation is great and all, but sorry it never will replace what you learn from the good ol been there done that school of hard knocks.

Yeh commander I got my list too lol. Some just for fun others for douchebaggery.

DT your right. Though I prefer not to touch inmates if it can be avoided. It sucks after blood exposure having to get your first blood test to show you don’t have whatever the inmate has that you are exposed to then the subsequent test 3 weeks later to see if your clean. I have pushed for every officer to be issues OC for awhile with no results. Right now my push is for them to issue it for the two officers in the segregation unit. Though I already know that it will probably not happen.

Now if the COs had gas masks then sprayed FOX that would be a great idea…

Let me know when you open that stand Irish. I know a few I would like to spray if they grow a set and come across the street. You know who I mean. LOL

Follow policy and procedure the best way possible given the situation. Course we all know when the turds and slapping on the fan blades then usually all bets are off. But till that point it is there to cover your and the departments ass. (Not that always agree with it) As the old saying goes “I’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.” If the day of this job comes I’m ever put in that situation then you can bet I’m doing whatever I have to to see my brothers and sisters and myself all go home safe.

Anyways about your mild sauce, I think my retirement plan is going to be to have a lil taco stand across the street from Luc. The kicker is everything is spiced up with different grades and brands of OC. CTS would be mild, Fox would be the set your arsehole blazin hot, and that Deftech stuff could made a good spicy orange sauce. For an extra 25 cents you can even get a slushie made with PR beaten flavored ice.

Good comments. Second guessing by supervisors or the Jail supervisor is a detriment to good corrections and morale. It’s good to critique an officer in private by making suggestions on the best approach to a given situation. But as Commander said when the crap hits the fan you have to react. I was thinking about a scenario we have encountered in the POD units. One officer with 48 inmates in two man cells. There have been a few fights in the PODS where the officer called for backup, locked out the computer then got into the melee before backup arrived. Management has the idea that in a POD the officer needs to stay at the desk, monitor the situation and not get involved. The only problem I see with that concept is when an inmate sues the officer for “duty to care” for their safety by not helping in a fight.

I was a Use of Force Chairman for over 11 years. DT is right. When I completed an investigation, unless it was clear the UOF was bad by viewing the video (when available), I always sided on the side of caution. No one knows what is going through a person’s mind when the S*** hits the fan. I was fortunate to have a lot of good Officers on my 2 shifts. They would sit down with the Officer involved and help them make sure they covered the 4 elements in their conduct report. It made it so much easier to investigate and to defend, if it ever made it to a law suit. The Officers were always apprehensive when completing the required documentation. I would have them relieved and sit them in our conference room with a veteran Officer, so they could cool off before starting their paperwork. DT, I know there are people out there who want to hang you to get a step up in there career. Happened to me a few times as an Officer. I don’t hold grudges. I know for a fact what goes around comes around. When those people need someone to help them in time of need, it usually didn’t happen and they ended up getting shown the door.

The response to resistance continuum isn’t a bad tool for our department, Ohio DR&C. Most of our staff is poorly educated and do not take the time to know or memorize the use of force policy. So having responses in black and white makes it easier for all parties involved. The problem is the way it’s misinterpreted by use of force commitees. Things like, “Why didn’t you do so and so… OR…..You should’ve done this.” Well sir or maam it didn’t occur to me at the time I acted is the stock response to these questions. They can still get you for “poor judgement” and discipline you, which is a joke to me. Preclusion is the elimination of reasonable alternatives available to the employee at the time they act. What may occur to a Unit Manager sitting in an office reviewing the use of force may not be the same as what occurs to me during the heat of battle.

Graham vs. Connor says all uses of force should be viewed from the viewpoint and perspective of the staff member involved in the incident. NOT from the safe and secure confines of an office. When an individual has never or will never use force or is so far removed from the front lines you get a lot of interpretation and armchair quarterbacking, which is precisely what isn’t supposed to happen!

I’m sorry man. That sounds even more confusing.

That is why Ohio has the Response to Resistance (formerly Use of Force) continum. It is spelled out fairly well. It still leaves a little confusion. But, courts have ruled as you said, what a resonable person would deem necessary to stop the resistance. Whether it be assault on an Inmate, Staff or outside contractor. We had administrative regulations that tell when to use force or deadly force. There is little gray area. Also, we use four elements to justify force. Preclusion-any way to keep from using force or not able to. Jeopardy-the danger you fell you are in, Opportunity-the inmates opportunity to assault or continue disruptive behaivor, Ability-surroundings, his/her size or physical abilities compared to yours…. Example- 120lb female being threatened by a 200 lb male inmate as opposed to a 200lb male officer in the same situation. Also takes into consideration of the inmates physical abilities ie: martial arts or other special training.

We use a system where there are no levels of force. You are expected to use the force necessary to stop a fight/battery/murder or whatever with the level of force necessary. You are allowed whatever tools are provided to you, be that OC, your baton, your hands, or depending on the post, rifles or grenade launchers. You are supposed to use the amount of force that should be reasonably used that any trained and competent correctional employee would use in the same situation. It sometimes leaves a little bit of confusion among staff, and supervisors as well. For example; an officer observes a fight. He is in a small area where other people could be affected by the use of OC spray. One officer will use OC anyway, because he thinks that is required. Another will use physical force, because he doesn’t want to overspray staff or others in the area. While either option is acceptable by the Use of Force policy, a supervisor reviewing the report of one or the other will say that the officer was wrong for, either using OC and spraying others, or say the other officer was wrong for not using OC because it is unofficially thought of as the lesser level of force. Hope that wasn’t too confusing, but if it was, then you see my point.

Absolutely agree Commander. Watch yourself first, always face inmates regardless where you are. Take a defensive stance when talking to an inmate (blade your body). If you are by yourself call for backup immediately then keep the inmate away from you using whatever force is needed including physical force. There are some inmates who will not allow other inmates to hit officers. I have been in fights where other inmates have held back an aggressor to end a fight. Stay safe.

I stand corrected DT. It is on the same level. 2nd level up is right. My bad. But, you are totally right. OC doesn’t always work. You have to be ready to fight your way out of it or atleast hold them off until help gets there. Lifting weights and hitting the bag was always a good way to kill two birds with one stone. Self defense classes are a great tool also. But, DT, you know as well as I do, you could arm some people and they would still watch you take an ass whuppin’. Then they would say, I was waiting for the response to arrive. Dude, if you are down and an Inmate is on top, he is getting wasted. Plain and simple. I would rather save your life and lose my job then wait and then find out you are a vegetable.

Actually for ODR&C use of chemiclas and putting your hands on an inmate are on the same level. The green or 2nd tier when the inmate is passsively resistance. You can use joint manipulation, balance displacement, takedowns and/or chemicals. The problem I’ve seen with chemicals is the over reliance on them. As CO’s we need to know how to fight and fight well. FOX is a tool we can use and use to our advantage, but we’ve still gotta be able and ready to get down and get dirty.

If you carry FOX Slim, I promise the majority will stop when they see you pull it. Don’t know what you use but, I have used a lot of different OC throughout the years and Fox is by far the best and has the most stopping power. We used 5 million SHU and 1.67% capscicinoids. Very strong and very nasty. Usually makes everyone within a couple hundred yards cough and gag. My 1st responders carried MK9, everyone else carried the MK4. Either way, it is nasty and very effective. Doesn’t work on everyone but probably 95% it does. PR-24 is good for the other 5%.

At our prison, all custody staff carry OC. All Officers and Sergeants carry 2 MK-9s, Lieutenants carry MK-4s. All officers in positions that respond to alarms also carry blast gernades. If someone does something that would prevent them from carrying OC, then they are not allowed to report to their job assignment. No OC, no work on the line.

Though I agree that using OC is definatately safer for staff dealing with fighting inmates, the inmates seem more willing to fight and keep on fighting when staff arrive than they did when we showed up and started taking them down or using our batons if they did not stop fighting.

Absolutely agree with OC use in all jails and prisons. There is NO need for officers to get injured when you can prevent it using OC. We need to think more about officer safety and less about inmate rights. Tell that to the State Commission of Corrections.

At my old prison, SOCF, all staff are permitted to carry OC. You have to go through an 8 hour course. If you have a questionable UOF, they do take away your OC (if it is used) and when the invest is over, if found doing nothing wrong, you are then permitted to carry OC again. You are absolutely right, using OC is on the next to the bottom level on the response to resistance continum. One level before using your hands. It requires little effort and can save staff from minor or serious injury. It is only an irritant that generally goes away after 30 to 45 minutes.